How do you feel about Common Core education?

by nonjwspouse 107 Replies latest social current

  • nonjwspouse

    yes Oubliette, Mark does support CCSS. He is the Champion of CCSS.

    Did you read the NCEE Summery of key findings describing the reduction of educational levels for high school graduates?

    Here is a link talking about Mark with the observations of a woman who was on the CCSS standards comittee, and is now speaking out against it. She left her position because she was aware of the huge problems and disagreed with the creation of and implimintation of CC standards.

    Did you read Mark Tucker's "Dear Hillary" letter I linked previously (within more than one post I believe)? with the observstions od

    The repetative " accepted by 45 states " is not the full story. The acceptance was done by two signatures, no vote and no full knowladge by the educators. The other previousl links points out the 17 states that have now recognised big issues with Common Core.

  • mrhhome

    Wow. There is a great deal to cover here. I will spread my response over several posts.

    First, I would like to thank Oubliette for her post / response. You have illustrated several of my points on other threads beautifully. There is not much difference between religion and liberal / progressive secular dogma. They are both founded on blindly accepted tenets. They both are passionately evangelicized by their proponents who simply cite different sources of authority.

    Normally, I try very hard not to get personal. Forgive me if I do on this subject. You are pushing something that is directly impacting my family. You are dismissing any concerns with the "we know best" / "we are smarter than you" / "your are a fool" response. [Did you learn that technique from the JW?] Sorry, that response is not going to cut it. They are my children. I have seen things that give me reason for concern, and you have not adequately addressed my concerns. Until YOU do, did you say it Obliette..."refrain from further comments!"

    BTW, did you say which grade you teach?

  • mrhhome

    It is disingenuous to seperate the problems with the course material and the Common Core. They are both part of the same general push. The text books are written to satisfy the Common Core.

    I have discovered numerous problems with the course material. In many places, it is flat wrong. This is not a matter of political opinion. It is a matter of comparison with commonly accepted sources of authority such as the Webster dictionary.

    This is not just some complaint from loony parents. This is coming from teachers and administrators as well. As one Vice President told me, "The people who are making these decisions obviously are not talking to the teachers who are actually working with the students."

    They are pushing more skills down into lower grades. At first, this may sound like a good idea. Unfortunately, you reach a limit where it begins producing catastrophic effects. You only have a limited number of hours in the day to teach material. If you start adding high level material, you are spending less time teaching the basics. If you sacrifice the foundation of the basics, all the higher skills are a waste of time.

  • mrhhome

    Do you realize that you just supported nonjwspouses point? [Talk about critical thinking skills.]

    And the CCSS in mathematics, read carefully, clearly leave much of what ought to happen … in the upper division of high school optional, which is entirely consistent with the findings of our panel as well.

    Prior to this statement, I dismissed the claims that the Common Core was a lower standard. You just verified it.

    So let's make sure that we are clear. We are crowding out the basics in the lower grades and chopping off stuff at the top. Who exactly thought that this is a good idea?

  • mrhhome

    I'm out of time. I will return to the topic of "Critical Thinking" later.

    Suffice it to say, I never said that you could not teach someone to think. I simply said that it is very difficult. It requires time and a great deal of individual attention. Given the constraints in the public classroom, it becomes even more difficult.

    I love it when a teacher tells me that they were "taught" about "thinking." Did they actually "think" about "thinking", or did they simply adopted a definition defined by someone else and turn the crank on a process taught to them.

    Maybe someday when you have to (a) solve problems that require real abstract thought with (b) people other than K-12 student that (c) come different cultures, backgrounds, behavior styles, communication styles, and very developed but unique gifts; you will begin spending more time "thinking" about "thinking."

    I also have had to mentor people and develop their "problem solving" ability.

    Got to go.

  • nonjwspouse


    How incredibilly eloquent and clear you are with writing your arguments. I do with I had such skill as you possess.

    I do tend to go " all over the place" without really focusing appropriatly on one subject before progressing to another. This subject is so highly intertwined and convoluted that it seems to be above my own ability to clearly express what I have been resesarching. I do need much more practice in this area of writing and expressing.

    I am also just recently becoming really aware of the major problems of CCSS. The research is so volumous, deeply hidden within other information sometimes, and time consuming. That plus the examples of the approved curriculum coming home with my daugher first hand. It all creates a huge concern for me, as it should for all parents with children in a CCSS school or homeschool program.

  • LisaRose

    Oubiette, your comments were very informative, but I think you went overboard on the sarcasm. Disparaging remarks rarely contribute to a rational debate.

    Mrrhome, can you name one problem (of the numerous) with the course materials? I am interested in the subject and would like to learn more.

    You say there is not much difference between religion and liberal/secular dogma, you say that they are both founded on "blindly accepted tenets". But couldn't someone say the same about conservative dogma? I would like to see one example of the "blindly accepted tenets".

  • nonjwspouse

    I will let mrhhome express his own thoughts, though I would like to just throw in a few.

    Academic standards to which all common core "signed up" states must adheare to must be met by at least 65% ( give or take I forgot the exact number) to recieve the highly generous funding. ( Which from other sources I have been reading and trying to conform say this funding doesn't all have to be used for education, fishy)

    These standards mean preschoolers must pass a test requiring that they are reading. No room for those who learn at different paces, which is the reality in early childhood education. Other unhealthy, overly exaggerated, unrealistic, rigid testing standards exist for the other early childhood grades.

    Then by the time high school testing happens, the standards are lowered to lower that what some states that were promised the standers were higher standards. The standards for many are now lower than before. This will help satifiy the promise ofthe CCSS program that all students will graduate. Is that better education? This is why in my previous link 17 other states previously " signing on" ( which requires only two peoples signatures by the way) are now rethinking that commitment.

    Math teaching, for example, is taught in a highly convoluted time consuming way. It is correct just like the "old" math method was correct. ( though some of the estimating methods are not) Some people even prefer it. Ok I have no problem with introducing it as another alternative. The problem lies with the children being forced into ONE method only, and even if the answer is right, if the procedure to get there was wrong they fail the answer. Does that sound like a testing companies dream? To require a new math standard method to be taught, to produce those textbooks, and then to create the testing for those samerequired CCSS math testing standards.... what does that smell like to you?

    The oversight for the standards for testing is inadequate and even harmful as expressed by one member of the oversite board whichis provided by numerous links above.

    The volume of this issue is far too much for a single simple post, or at least it is for me to try to explain.

    I believe Hrhhome will be better with that than I am.

  • nonjwspouse


    Marc wrote this, his proposed direction for American education in 1992. I know what my opinion is on this line of thought. He describes current CCSS in these points. After reading his letter what is yours?

    1. Bypass all elected officials on school boards and in state legislatures by making federal funds flow to the Governor and his appointees on workforce development boards.

    2. Use a computer database, a.k.a. "a labor market information system," into which school personnel would scan all information about every schoolchild and his family, identified by the child's social security number: academic, medical, mental, psychological, behavioral, and interrogations by counselors. The computerized data would be available to the school, the government, and future employers.

    3. Use "national standards" and "national testing" to cement national control of tests, assessments, school honors and rewards, financial aid, and the Certificate of Initial Mastery (CIM), which is designed to replace the high school diploma.

  • mrhhome


    Thank you for asking me to provide some examples. I am doing this from memory. Keep in mind, much of this is multiple choice in 3rd grade. Let’s break this into stuff that is absolutely wrong, stuff that is marginal, and stuff that makes no sense.

    To provide some background, my oldest is a naturally gifted child. Testing at an 8+ grade level in math in the beginning of 5th grade. Etc. We really never had to help her in school. My middle child has her own unique gifts but reading is not one of them. She started this year with some problems. Mom and the teacher were not getting it fixed. I stepped in personally and started reviewing all of her classwork and tests.

    Absolutely wrong: On a couple of tests per quarter, there are at least one or two vocabulary words that are flat-out wrong. As in the “correct” answer is verifiably wrong with a dictionary. Sometimes, the “incorrect” answers are actually closer to the proper definition. It is so frequent that I stopped bringing it to the teacher’s attention. Nothing she can do about it. Test are graded and recorded by the computer. These are publisher supplied tests based on the core curriculum. It is just plain sloppy.

    Marginal: (1) Using words on tests that are above that grade level and have not been introduced to the student. (2) Testing concepts that have not been introduced to the student. [This was more of a problem in the first quarter, given that they have introduced most of the concepts by now.] (3) Many cases where the “correct” answer in a reading comprehension multiple choice test was debatable. (4) On reading comprehension homework, my daughter got a reading passage with the question “What is the main idea?” My wife and I both read the passage and debated the question for 15-30 mins. Our conclusion was that there wasn’t one. I have a graduate degree and my wife is wicked smart. Both of us read a great deal. If that is our conclusion, what do you expect a 3rd grader to do?

    Stuff that makes no sense: (1) They are introducing algebra concepts (i.e. the distributive property) to kids in 3rd grade. Why? Because the kids have not mastered their complete multiplication tables, and they need to break the problem into smaller pieces [9x8=(9x2)+(9x2)+(9x2)+(9x2)]. Just to emphasize, they are teaching algebra concepts to kids who have not mastered their multiplication tables. WTF? I asked the obvious question. Instead of spending time teaching algebra, why not spend that time drilling them on their multiplication tables? (2) Several other examples of this in math. The kids get taught a “work around” to introduce a concept that is a few grade levels above them. My question is always the same. By the time you get done teaching them bad habits, you could have taught them how to do it right. Furthermore when they finally get to the grade where the concept is actually taught, the first thing you will need to do is unteach the bad habits.

    This is complete nonsense.

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