God is Jesus, and Jesus is God.
Why don`t the JHW worship Jesus as well as they only worship God Jehovah?
The bible says so often to worship Jesus.
How can I convince them that they are wrong???
peace
God is Jesus
by evangelist 178 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Earnest
LizardSnot,
To consider the relevance of "the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End" it is necesary to first identify who is talking in Rev.22:13. In verse 8 it is John speaking. In verse 9 it is the angel speaking. In verse 16 it is Jesus speaking. As they didn't use quotation marks in the original writing it would normally be reasonable to assume it is the angel speaking in verses 9-15. But the identification of that one as "the Alpha and the Omega" would link him with "the Alpha and the Omega" of both the previous chapter (21:6) and the first chapter (1:8). Both of these chapters identify this one as God. Chapter one also identifies him as the Almighty. So, there is not much doubt about that.
The reference in Rev.1:17 to "the First and the Last" must apply to Jesus as he says in verse 18 "I became dead, but look I am living forever and ever". In Rev.2:8 it again refers to him as "the First and the Last, who became dead and came to life again".
Is it John's intention to identify the "First and the Last" of the first chapter with the "First and the Last" of the final chapter? Three verses later he has the opportunity of identifying Jesus with the Alpha and the Omega. Instead, Jesus says "I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star". If the intention really was to identify the two as the same then it must be asked why God didn't also identify himself as the "First and Last" in 21:6 where he says "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end".
Why would Jesus describe himself as the First and the Last if it was not to identify himself with the Almighty? In both instances he is talking about being dead and coming to life again and the language reminds me of the description in Colossians 1:18-20 where he is the "firstborn from the dead".
So while you may choose to believe that these two scriptures identify God and Jesus as the same it is by no means an obvious conclusion. As John describes the Almighty as Jesus' "God and Father" (Rev.1:6) and Jesus refers to him as "my God" several times (Rev.3:2,12) there is little reason to think an identification of the two as the same was intended.
Earnest
Edited by - Earnest on 17 June 2002 14:6:29
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plmkrzy
4John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, andfrom the seven spirits[1]5 before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.No mistery there.
if the text is messed up I appoligize in advance
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evangelist
Why don`t the JHW worship Jesus as well as they only worship God Jehovah?
The bible says so often to worship Jesus.
How can I convince them that they are wrong???
peace
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evangelist
gg
Why don`t the JHW worship Jesus as well as they only worship God Jehovah?
The bible says so often to worship Jesus.
How can I convince them that they are wrong???
peace
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LizardSnot
Earnest,
I dont really see what point you are trying to make. If one reads the scriptures in Revelations...he cant help but wonder why there are such strong connections between who God and who Jesus is.
Please tell me how you can differentiate between First and Last and Alpha and Omega and Beginning and End. Quite simply.the 3 are the same. It amazes me how someone like yourself will take something so simple and break it down until it doesnt make sense anymore.
Dont you think there is supposed to be a message here? Wasnt God trying to tell us something? Do you really think that he left all these easy clues for us not to get?
What is God trying to tell you with the scriptures that weve been debating? What message is he sending you?
If Jesus is simply the Son of Godwhy not just say so and avoid all the comparisons between him and God the father?
I dont see John or any of the Apostles being such complicated individuals as to write things down to confuse us. These were simple everyday people. I will agree that certain parts of Revelations are difficult to understand...but not the scriptures we're talking about. Lizard
Edited by - LizardSnot on 2 July 2002 9:37:26
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evangelist
If Jesus is simply the Son of Godwhy not just say so and avoid all the comparisons between him and God the father?
Quote Evangelist
I think this is important to know who Jesus is because it shows how God manifested himself in to flesh, to show us his love towards us, and that we can do his will if we let God in us like God manifested in Jesus,so Jesus was God, and God is Jesus,both two perfect, and sinless,and Holy.
praise God
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Earnest
Lizard,
I also find it amazing that such convoluted teachings are derived from the writings of fishermen, albeit inspired of God. I am quite convinced that the simplest understanding of scripture is almost always the true one, unless there is very good reason to believe otherwise.
So with that in mind I will try to answer your questions. Do I think there is a message, something God is trying to tell us about himself in Revelation.
I don't think that Revelation is about doctrine on the nature of God or Christ. That was not John's message. His purpose was to write down accurately those amazing visions he'd been priveleged to see, whatever their meaning might be. But as he does write about God and Christ I agree there are some conclusions we can reach.
He starts by saying "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him...presented...to his slave John, who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave..." (1:1,2)
"May you have undeserved kindness and peace from the one who is and who was and who is coming, and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ..." (1:4,5)
"To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood - and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father..." (1:5,6)
In chapter 3 Jesus also speaks of "my God" a number of times. (3:2,12) Throughout the rest of the book it is about God and the Lamb and all sorts of wonderful visions, but never any confusion as to who is God and who the Lamb.
So, while I don't think these were written to specifically teach us about the nature of God there is little doubt in my mind what the simple, uncomplicated disciples who first read this believed. In my opinion, the emphasis given to their both being described as First and Last could only come from someone intent on finding support for their dogma regardless of whatever else the book has to say.
Earnest