by tootired2care 327 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Since I do not pray for the death of anyone, or dehumanise anyone... and I don't know who else on this thread is doing that... then you can understand my confusion in just what it is you THINK you're talking about.
If the only way to reach that point is the elimination of people who don't want to live that way, and God will look after it, then great! - Ablebodiedman
Millions of christians pray every day for Jesus to return to destroy non-christians.
I did not see Ablebodiedman's post, and I'm not sure he meant what you think he meant. I will leave that for him to say.
But for those who do pray for Christ to return and destroy all non-christians... they aren't listening to Him, are they?
Because how is praying for the death of others (anyone for that matter) loving? Where is the mercy in it? Where is the understanding that God does not want even ONE man to be destroyed, but that ALL men should come to life? If He wants all to come to life, how are you going to face Him when you have been praying for others' deaths?
Christ asked his father to forgive those who wronged Him... He did not ask his father to destroy them.
A good reminder against this is this: 'By the measure you use, will it be used against you."
Peace to you,
tammy
I'm not sure he meant what you think he meant
No christian ever means anything they said. It's a basic rule of JWN.
TEC - your last comment about Jesus and his charge to preach and trying to reconcile it with other passages of bible, and the point of this thread are as clear as mud; additionally, from how how I see it, it really doesn't defend the inexcusable actions of god passing bloodguilt off for for the sins of neighbors. As I pointed out earlier human courts imperfect as they are would not charge you with a crime your neighbor commits. So I guess his timeless principals aren't so timely after all.
Ucantnome - You still haven't answered the question I posed to you, about your philosophy on god being tethered to the bible.
tt2c-
As I pointed out earlier human courts imperfect as they are would not charge you with a crime your neighbor commits. So I guess his timeless principals aren't so timely after all.
The concept of criminal justice is all over the map in the OT, eg THIS was the God-ordained method given in the 'Law of Moses' for a nearby town to absolve itself of bloodguilt when a body was discovered at its outskirts, where the murderer was unknown:
Deuteronomy 21:6-8:
"If someone is slain and the murder cannot be found, the elders and priests shall measure the distance to the nearest city and the elders of that city shall bring a heifer, and the priests shall break its neck. And all the elders of that city shall wash their hands over the heifer and they shall testify, 'Our hands did not shed this blood, neither did your eyes see it shed. Set not the guilt of innocent blood in the midst of your people Israel, but let the guilt of blood be forgiven them."
So who's the winner there? Perhaps the elders and priests, who get to perform their purification ritual and change it to the city tab? Anyone who appreciates the modern concept of justice need not hope for God's "perfect" laws to be resurrected, if this is what God's plan requires.
Oh, better yet: how about that 'Oath of Innocence', the legal procedure upon which the Book of Job is based?
This ancient legal defense was used in various ancient cultures (Hebrews, Egyptian, Mesopotamian) that if someone who was accused of some crime, they could take the "Oath of Innocence" in the presence of their deity and declare, "So help me God, I'm innocent!" and be exonerated of the crime. The idea was that if they were GUILTY, God would strike them dead on the spot or amplify their suffering; but if they were INNOCENT, they would be exonerated of the crime, and rewarded with the wrongs being righted. If the person took the oath, they could in turn curse the person who was guilty (if they knew who it was), and the trial and judgment could commence immediately, even if the newly-accused wasn't able to defend himself by not even being aware of the proceedings.
Don't remember reading about anything like that in the OT, you say?
Recall God’s words in Deuteronomy 1:17:
You must not be partial in judging: hear out the small and the great alike; you shall not be intimidated by anyone, for the judgment is God’s. Any case that is too hard for you, bring to me, and I will hear it.”
Also, Solomon refers to it while praying after the temple is completed, in 1 Kings 8:31-32:
“If someone sins against a neighbor and is given an oath to swear, and comes and swears before your altar in this house, 32 then hear in heaven, and act, and judge your servants, condemning the guilty by bringing their conduct on their own head, and vindicating the righteous by rewarding them according to their righteousness."
So how does that fit in with the story of Job?
Job's 'friends' had accused Job of having committed some unknown sin, since OBVIOUSLY Job was being punished by God for some unknown deed by being subjected to experience his misfortunes. However, Job KNEW he was innocent and righteous (and God even admitted Job was righteous in the narrative), so Job demanded to declare his innocence in God's presence, in effect accusing Jehovah of being the author (or authorizer) of undeserved evil.
(God actually admitted as much in the account, since the reader has the insider's bird-eye view that it was TRUE, basically being a bar-bet between God and Satan, in the prologue).
Surprisingly, God actually AGREES to hear the case, and ALLOWS Job to plead his innocence before Him!
At that point, though, Job decides it best NOT to curse God (as Satan had predicted he would), and thus Jehovah doesn't have to punish Himself (as the actual guity party). Hence, God rewards Job with blessings, to make everything right. The End.
(Oh, and don't worry: all those killed children and cattle were merely considered as Job's property, hence as easily replaceable as any other lost commodity for which one might take out an insurance policy for the insured value. It's not like Job LOVED them, or anything like that!)
It's a story of Job daring to turn the tables on God, which is lost on most readers.
Nice God-given justice, eh? Robert Sutherland is a Canadian lawyer/Bible scholar who wrote a book on the topic 20 yrs ago.
Adam
So who's the winner there? Perhaps the elders and priests, who get to perform their purification ritual and change it to the city tab? Anyone who appreciates the modern concept of justice need not hope for God's "perfect" laws to be resurrected, if this is what God's plan requires.
The elders and priests of course! After the showy blood washing public spectacle, they get to eat all of the nice fat filets on someone elses dime. When are folks going to realize this whole preiesthood thing was about free steaks!
(Oh, and don't worry: all those killed children and cattle were merely considered as Job's property, hence as easily replaceable as any other lost commodity for which one might take out an insurance policy for the insured value. It's not like Job LOVED them, or anything like that!)
It's a story of Job daring to turn the tables on God, which is lost on most readers.
Yes this account highlights what little value humans are in gods eyes despite what the other fairy tales of the bible would have you believe.
Great website BTW, this video below is definitely worth the watch too.
tt2c-
The elders and priests of course! After the showy blood washing public spectacle, they get to eat all of the nice fat filets on someone elses dime. When are folks going to realize this whole preiesthood thing was about free steaks!
That's some pretty high-tech CSI to locate and punish the real killer, huh? No? They're not really too concerned with finding out who the REAL killer, are they? And why, exactly? "God doesn't actually see all, know all?" The priests couldn't resort to the Urim and Thummin, their Jehovah-powered Ouija board to spell out the name of the killer (and thank God they didn't, huh)?
The priesthood said that God would punish the real killer, and left it at that: they didn't particularly care, since as you said, they got their cut just the same.
BTW, that Oath of Innocence concept still remains with us today, surviving in the form of the "swearing in" process in court (placing one's hand on a Bible and saying, "I swear to tell the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, SO HELP ME, GOD") except secular courts now use REAL evidence: us evil atheists have killed all the fun by saying we don't believe in God, so the judicial system can't just run on the honor system, anymore!
So when TEC says-
One warns out of love, and shares for the same reason, as one is given to warn and/or share.
One can only repeatedly wonder if TEC has read the Bible or just doesn't KNOW the content and the stories inside? Does TEC think EVERYONE ELSE doesn't know the stories in the Bible, as if WE all just fell off the turnip truck?
TEC, you're not suggesting we all should just ignore the scriptures in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Deuteronomy, Job, etc, as if they didn't exist, as we see fit? (I know: "lying scribes" excuse, AKA The ORIGINAL Conspiracy Theory to cover up the word of God, who cannot do ANYTHING about it, as if He weren't Omnipotent, or anything like that!).
Was Ezekiel just kidding around about the death threat for failure to intervene in the sins of another? Do we ignore all the passages in the OT about how the Chosen People would be vomited out of the Promised Land for failing to enforce the 'Law of Moses', and the examples of the Jews actually HAVEN BEEN exiled and taken captive by the Babylonians and Assyrians, when that explanation was offered, as if they were just joshin' around?
So none of those death threats are meant to be taken LITERALLY?
But you think YOU deserve "special pleading", an exception being given from us to believe that YOUR actions are PURELY driven out of LOVE for others, as if you've got no skin in the game? Sure, "the other guys" do it out of FEAR and to save their own necks, but NOT YOU!!!
TEC's "we do it out of LOVE for our fellow men, we just love everyone SOOOO MUCH!" is the same mantra a JW told me a few weeks ago, as if I didn't know about the etiology and evolution of the concept of justice which comes from Ezekiel and Isaiah, and which was melded into other ancient ideas of justice to blossom into that which is shared by Christians and JWs, needing to save their own necks at Armageddon, even throwing their own family members under the bus in the name of their "LUV" for a brutal God.
It's an absolutely laughable assertion to make with a straight face, and that TEC would DARE to make it on an ex-JW forum is the height of delusion. Many of us don't pick and choose (or fabricate) evidence in our minds, as if life is a serve-yourself line at the local Home Town Buffet restaurant, and if what's on selection doesn't fit your tastes, feel free to pop into the kitchen and whip up your own dish! Why bother limiting to the selections on display!?
If anyone TRULY believes in God, they wouldn't be telling HIM what parts of the Bible they're willing to follow, and telling Jesus what he REALLY meant. Instead, they'd be studying HIS instructions for humanity, and if they weren't able to figure out it's the oldest scam in the book (and in fact the Holy Book IS the inspiration for that expression), they'd at least TRY to determine what His Divine Will is, and follow it, not make up their own.
Heck, I'm not sure if those who'd make God in their image aren't actually more of the atheists than Cofty and I, combined: they sure don't ACT like followers or believers, but rather those who get some kind of thrill by basking in the reflected Glory of a God figure, and feeling Holier Than Thou while also putting on the false humility act.
(I know, I know, TEC: cue up the, "but I'm only pointing to Him!" line....)
Adam
Aren't billions dying of decay, old age, sickness anyway? God is the source of life, not death.
God is the source of life not death? The professor in me requires you to support your defniitive statement with empirical evidence, preferably peer reviewed academic studies. That is what you feel and believe. Good for you. Qualify it as such.
Aren't billions dying of decay, old age, sickness anyway? God is the source of life, not death.
A fair question but it is off topic, and besides after 2,013 years of the supposed 'great sacrifice' that was supposed to redeem everyone, and fix things; i'm not really seeing any truth in that.
