I used to post this for how Tec views things:
That image will no longer work. It needs to be:
Question regarding Faith...(adamah)
by tec 210 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
adamah
Hi TEC,
So not even the slightest acknowledgment of the glaring contradiction jgnat pointed out here, one that places her in the uncomfortable position of having to correct Jesus?
He (Jesus) reminded me of the account of the copper serpent. The Israelites, when bitten by 'snakes' in the desert, were told to put their gaze upon the copper serpent, and be healed. Christ is the copper serpent we have been given to look upon. He is the foundation of faith. I was not even aware that I had been speaking as to this truth, but you noticed, and I remembered how I have done this, and He reminded me of this example from Moses and the copper serpent.
I don't have to remind you that the copper serpent had to be destroyed because it became an obstacle between men and God.
No, thank you for that; I had forgotten.
You just gloss over the fact that YOU are now taking the blame for "forgetting", when you previously had attributed the source of your information as the voice of Jesus in your head REMINDING you?
Care to explain?
First, Adamah, before we go further... there is NO reason at all that an atheist might not have insight (or even have heard, though they would give credit to themselves)... something that a person of faith did not hear, or did not YET hear. In fact, I know that it can happen that way, as my Lord recently showed me this. Some atheists (the ones who don't carry baggage and preconceived notions from previous religious beliefs) don't carry the baggage that people of faith do, who might have come out of a religion, and still have some of their teachings stuck to them, so that they are looking through glasses that are still a bit tinted by their former religion.
And you know what I call that "baggage" you refer to? FAITH, the intentional self-inflicted knee-capping of one's intellectual capability, instead protecting the comforting blanket of faith, placing one's emotional needs above the rational. I try to limit that type of thing as MUCH as possible, as I prefer to see reality as it really IS, sans rose-colored glasses.
God seems to give special consideration to those pleading for the "gift" of faith if their request is accompanied by the sacrificial surrender of their God-given "gift" of "rationality" in return, given as a burnt offering consumed in the flames of the altar, in the name of worship to God.
Thanks, but I'm quite happy to keep my "God-given" gift of rational thought!
BTW, it's not "preconceived notions" per se that hamstring people, but the unwillingness to re-examine and QUESTION what previously was accepted on faith, alone. It's the willingness to take 1 Thessalonians 5:21 challenge to "test all things, hold fast to what is good". I HAVE examined the evidence, and came to MY conclusion; however, you cannot do that until you realize that you're wearing cognitive blinders that prevent you from even STARTING the process in "good faith". That would require accepting the presupposition that the Bible MIGHT be the work of men, and looking at it from the detached viewpoint of a Biblical scholar and historian.
Not that you WILL become an atheist like me: you may NOT. A recent example that comes to mind is Dr. Mary Schweitzer, a palentologist who still believes in Jesus. But that's HER personal decision which you should not rely upon as the basis of YOUR faith, since it's actually an "appeal to authority" (and there may be OTHER unknown factors which explain her decision, eg she might have a pastor father who would disinherit her if she publicly announced she was an atheist, or she really doesn't believe but wants to raise her kids in the church, since she may not see herself capable of instilling REAL morality in her children, since she believes the pastors' lies, etc).
So they may be able to have clearer insight, or they may even be able to hear what the Spirit is saying... though they might not think they were hearing from the Spirit (unless they ever did come to have faith, and then they would remember back to some of these things, and realize that Christ had been speaking to them all along)
I may have been angry at God as a young child/teen, but I'm way beyond that. You know WHY I'm not an angry atheist? I really do NOT believe they exist! If I DID believe they existed, then I would be angry at them for botching up the Universe, etc. I don't, and I actually have MORE appreciation for the image of Jesus, since unlike many atheists, I do see the GOOD in SOME of the concepts Jesus taught, eg the idea of helping others, including giving all of one's possessions to help the poor.
Problem is, many Christians see that as extreme (and I agree: it's foolish irresponsible advice to place that level of trust in beings that don't exist), but the idea of helping others who are down and out is a GOOD thing (and not only a Christian thing: many other charitible organizations do so, without expecting to go to Heaven for doing so).
I had not heard what you have said, regarding the foreshadowing of the resurrection... though I can see that now that you have brought it out.
Yup, and like I pointed out earlier, the ancient Israelites didn't even believe in resurrection, much less in Abraham's time: early Christians were inserting their unique theological beliefs which were derived from Zoroasterian beliefs, and inserting their beliefs into the Torah via comments appearing in the NT.
If you've read any of my blog articles on Noah preaching before the Flood, or Lot's reputation makeover, you know that 2nd Peter is widely recognized as a fraudulent work, for many more reasons that this! The work was likely written by an early Christian to force the Torah to fit into evolving Christian theology.
It's just like how Jews have NEVER accepted the idea of Adam's 'original sin': Christians inserted their novel interpretation to create the need for Jesus' redemption from a long-anticipated Jewish Messiah.
I have, however, heard, the foreshadowing of God giving his son in sacrifice... not needing someone else to do that for him. Abraham was willing, but God did not actually need that. Abraham said, "God will provide the sacrfice." THAT was prophetic, and he might not even have known what he was saying, but he was speaking by the spirit.
Well, technically God had previously promised Abraham that he'd be blessed by being the patriarch of the Chosen People, and Abraham's faith was based on THAT promise. Hence the eyebrow-raising aspect of Jehovah, asking Abraham to him (in violation of Thou Shalt Not Spill Blood, given to Noah in Genesis 9:5-6), even AFTER God had blessed Sarah with a miraculous conception although menopausal. Based on the earlier promise, Abraham didn't ask questions, and Paul added the resurrection detail; Abraham may have thought Sarah would be blessed with ANOTHER son to make up with the sacrificed first-born, but the POINT is, Abraham didn't ask, he followed orders, even willing to violate prior Divine Will to do so.
Consider the effect of all of this had on Isaac! He was bound by his father, and placed on the altar: he likely believed he was going to "meet his maker" at the hands of his own "loving" father! The message to children is horrific: in your parent's eyes, God comes above you. JWs play this out every day, by shunning their own children, in the name of pleasing God, as a sign of their FAITH.
Let me ask you this: even though you were never baptized, do you agree with JW's reading of Abraham's FAITH, being willing to sacrifice Isaac? Are you for or against shunning your own 'flesh and blood'? See, the JWs place blind faith in Jehovah, except "God doesn't provide" them with a replaceable proxy family member to "sacrifice".
God provided the sacrifice then and there (in the ram)... and another later fulfillment: God gave HIS son.
Yeah, that's the story.
When someone asks, do you have faith in God... that tends to mean (or the way I hear it anyway)... do you have faith IN God, that He will do all the things that He has said, that you will listen and follow. (the first thing being, "Listen to My Son"... which Son says that the Spirit will teach; that His sheep hear His voice and He has more to call... faith in Christ, includes faith in what He teaches, listening, believing, and doing).
You didn't answer the question, which is binary, and needs a 'yes' or 'no' answer:
Do you believe God has power over death? Do you have FAITH in his ability to resurrect the dead?
Mind you, you don't HAVE to answer, but it's something you SHOULD answer in your own mind, since you want to be sure of what you believe, right? You DO want to believe in truths, and not just hold onto falsehoods that make you feel better but aren't really "real", right?
PS I noted Jephthah, Samson, and "other prophets" made "Paul's" faith hall of fame list. Expect to explain about how Jephthah's daughter being sacrificed to Jehovah as a result of a hasty vow, and Elisha's FAITH in the deaths by she-bear of young children who taunted him are examples that build one's "faith".
Adam
-
tec
So not even the slightest acknowledgment of the glaring contradiction jgnat pointed out here, one that places her in the uncomfortable position of having to correct Jesus?
There is no contradiction.
You just gloss over the fact that YOU are now taking the blame for "forgetting", when you previously had attributed the source of your information as the voice of Jesus in your head REMINDING you?
Care to explain?
Taking the blame? LOL... blame for what?
Christ reminded me of the copper serpent that Moses held up for the Israelites, when they were 'bitten'... as I also always looked TO Christ (and still point to Him) when feeling fearful or doubting.
The other incident - where the Israelites made the copper serpent into something it was not - was another matter and incident entirely.
What is the contradiction that you think you have found?
And you know what I call that "baggage" you refer to? FAITH, the intentional self-inflicted knee-capping of one's intellectual capability, instead protecting the comforting blanket of faith, placing one's emotional needs above the rational. I try to limit that type of thing as MUCH as possible, as I prefer to see reality as it really IS, sans rose-colored glasses.
Well, as you believe reality really is... at least. But so what? This has nothing to do with the point being discussed.
As for examining one's beliefs and faith, it is a little arrogant to think that only atheists TRULY examined their (previous) beliefs, becasue otherwise everyone would be atheist. I can believe that you examined the evidence that you have and came to the conclusion that you came to...but for some reason many of you (atheists) can't conceive of someone actually following the evidence right back to Christ and God.
It can be annoying... but it is kind of amusing too.
I may have been angry at God as a young child/teen, but I'm way beyond that. You know WHY I'm not an angry atheist? I really do NOT believe they exist! If I DID believe they existed, then I would be angry at them for botching up the Universe, etc. I don't, and I actually have MORE appreciation for the image of Jesus, since unlike many atheists, I do see the GOOD in SOME of the concepts Jesus taught, eg the idea of helping others, including giving all of one's possessions to help the poor.
Problem is, many Christians see that as extreme (and I agree: it's foolish irresponsible advice to place that level of trust in beings that don't exist), but the idea of helping others who are down and out is a GOOD thing (and not only a Christian thing: many other charitible organizations do so, without expecting to go to Heaven for doing so).
Okay. I made no reference to an angry atheist though. And of course other people give, atheist and theist alike. (not everyone who has faith in Christ gives for the expectation of a reward... some give because they have the law of love in their hearts... and some give simply because they love HIM, and He says to give, so they do... no thought of a reward other than acting on love for Him - and those He loves)
Yup, and like I pointed out earlier, the ancient Israelites didn't even believe in resurrection, much less in Abraham's time: early Christians were inserting their unique theological beliefs which were derived from Zoroasterian beliefs, and inserting their beliefs into the Torah via comments appearing in the NT.
Well, that would cancel out what you stated is foreshadowing of the resurrection.
-
tec
Let me ask you this: even though you were never baptized, do you agree with JW's reading of Abraham's FAITH, being willing to sacrifice Isaac? Are you for or against shunning your own 'flesh and blood'? See, the JWs place blind faith in Jehovah, except "God doesn't provide" them with a replaceable proxy family member to "sacrifice".
I don't know what the JWs read into that faith, so I can't answer that. I am against shunning, period. It is not taught by Christ. (and what proxy family member are you talking about?... because if you are referring to Abraham thinking that God could just give Abraham another son... that is not supported by anything. Through Isaac, your offsrping will be reckoned. Not Ishmael. Not any of the other children that Abraham had through concubines or later wives. Just Isaac)
God provided the sacrifice then and there (in the ram)... and another later fulfillment: God gave HIS son.
Yeah, that's the story.
Yep.
When someone asks, do you have faith in God... that tends to mean (or the way I hear it anyway)... do you have faith IN God, that He will do all the things that He has said, that you will listen and follow. (the first thing being, "Listen to My Son"... which Son says that the Spirit will teach; that His sheep hear His voice and He has more to call... faith in Christ, includes faith in what He teaches, listening, believing, and doing).
You didn't answer the question, which is binary, and needs a 'yes' or 'no' answer:
Do you believe God has power over death? Do you have FAITH in his ability to resurrect the dead?
Of course. Why would I not answer that? Why would I not have faith in that?
Though it is Christ who has been given this authority... His voice that calls ALL out of their graves; He who is the life and the resurrection.
Mind you, you don't HAVE to answer, but it's something you SHOULD answer in your own mind, since you want to be sure of what you believe, right? You DO want to believe in truths, and not just hold onto falsehoods that make you feel better but aren't really "real", right?
Well, I must have missed where you asked, or thought it was rhetorical. Of course, yes.
Peace,
tammy
-
adamah
TEC said-
And of course other people give, atheist and theist alike. (not everyone who has faith in Christ gives for the expectation of a reward... some give because they have the law of love in their hearts... and some give simply because they love HIM, and He says to give, so they do... no thought of a reward other than acting on love for Him - and those He loves)
I was referring to Matthew 25:31, which is referring to the JUDGING work of Jesus of separating the sheep from the goats, ON THE BASIS of their works; sending some to eternal hellfire and others to Heaven for what they've done for their fellow man. It's right there, in black-and-white.
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Yup, and like I pointed out earlier, the ancient Israelites didn't even believe in resurrection, much less in Abraham's time: early Christians were inserting their unique theological beliefs which were derived from Zoroasterian beliefs, and inserting their beliefs into the Torah via comments appearing in the NT.
Well, that would cancel out what you stated is foreshadowing of the resurrection.
My point is that it's trivial to pull off dramatic foreshadowing when writing a work of fiction. The writers of the NT were VERY familiar with the tale of Abraham offering his son, and used it as a source for the Jesus dying on the cross, as well as using other patriarchs as inspiration (eg Moses, where the "child in danger" motif of an infant placed in harm's way by the King was used for Jesus under threat of Herod, etc).
I don't know what the JWs read into that faith, so I can't answer that. I am against shunning, period. It is not taught by Christ. (and what proxy family member are you talking about?... because if you are referring to Abraham thinking that God could just give Abraham another son... that is not supported by anything. Through Isaac, your offsrping will be reckoned. Not Ishmael. Not any of the other children that Abraham had through concubines or later wives. Just Isaac)
I was referring to the fact that God "doesn't provide" a JW family with a substitute "stunt" sacrificial family member at the last moment, to step into the place of the family member to be shunned.
Surely though you can recognize and applaud the JWs faithfulness to Jehovah, for their willingness to sacrifice their own family member like Abraham was willing to do? Paul wouldn't have bothered to mention the "men of faith" and Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac for no good reason, since demonstrating one's faith is still required under the New Covenant.
Do you believe God has power over death? Do you have FAITH in his ability to resurrect the dead?
Of course. Why would I not answer that? Why would I not have faith in that?
Though it is Christ who has been given this authority... His voice that calls ALL out of their graves; He who is the life and the resurrection.
OK, just checking.
Care to revisit the scenario I offered earlier?
Your voice of Jesus (who has the power to resurrect) asks you to kill someone; no details are given. The act might be a demonstration of the greatest love of all on your behalf, i.e. laying down your own life to save innocent others, since you don't know the outcome and you might be killed. Thus, it has to be completed as a matter of faith.
What do you do?
Adam
-
mP
TEC
Didn't Jesus even warn of the risks of building on sand (more paradoxical sayings of Jesus)?
Yes, the foolish man... as opposed to the wise man who built his house upon the rock.
Which house could not fall, because the foundation was SURE.
mP:
But concrete is made up of cement and sand. I guess all those buildings including your home made of sand must be wrong or stupid engineering wise.
Damn that Jesus was wise, pay taxes, be a good slave and all that.
-
mP
TEC
No. I am saying that Christ is the truth... follow HIM
mP:
So why dont you hold dangerous snakes and drink poison like he said in Mat (i thnk it was mat)?
-
tec
I was referring to Matthew 25:31, which is referring to the JUDGING work of Jesus, where he is separating the sheep from the goats, ON THE BASIS of their works, sending some to eternal hellfire and others to Heaven ON THE BASIS of what they've done for their fellow man. It's right there, in black-and-white!
Yes, i know the sheep and the goats.
My point was in response to what you seemed to be saying... that christians do good works for a reward, rather than out of love. If that was not what you were saying, then there is no argument here.
I was referring to the fact that God "doesn't provide" a JW family with a substitute sacrificial family member at the last moment, to step into the place of the family member to be shunned.
Well why would He? They're choosing to shun their child based on the GB... not based on Christ (who shows us God), so the loss of their child is on them (the jws and the one they listen to, but they're the ones choosing to listen to the GB)
I don't know what your point is in bringing it up in the first place?
Surely though you can recognize and applaud their faithfulness to Jehovah, for their willingness to sacrifice their own family members? Paul wouldn't have bothered to mention the "men of faith" and Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac for no good reason, since demonstrating one's faith is still required under the New Covenant?
Their faithfulness to what men tell them 'jehovah' wants, you mean... because it does not demonstrate faith in Christ or His Father, who do not ask such things.
Your voice of Jesus (who has the power to resurrect) asks you to kill someone; no details are given. The act might be a demonstration of the greatest love of all on your behalf, i.e. laying down your own life to save others, since you don't know the outcome and you might be killed. Thus, it has to be completed as a matter of faith.
What do you do?
Re-read my response to the first time you asked. The resurrection is not a new element to your question, and my response hasn't changed... and I'm not going to repeat myself. Just go ahead and re-read. Peace, tammy
-
mP
TEC
Why didnt God just forgive everyone for their sins ? Why does he have to have his son tortured and killed because the pagans around israel liked to have human & animal sacrifices ? Why didnt he just wipe the proverbial slate ?
-
mP
TEC
My point was in response to what you seemed to be saying... that christians do good works for a reward, rather than out of love. If that was not what you were saying, then there is no argument here.
mP:
So why is history filled with xians doing the exact opposite ? Believers like peter not eatting with gentiles. Other believers like David killing everyone and anyone they can or percieve real or imaginery is a threat ? Or people like Paul who rather than helping slaves tells them to go back to their masters ? Are these really good people or are they good because you say they are, a bit like suicide bombers are good because some Imam says they are ?