Did Jesus have a BEGGINING?

by gumby 58 Replies latest jw friends

Earnest

Hmmm...let's see. The word 'beginning' occurs 60 times in the scriptures. Of these, the following verses have reference to Jesus:
"Jehovah himself produced me [wisdom] as the beginning of his way..." - Proverbs 8:22
"In the beginning the Word was..." - John 1:1
"This one was in the beginning with God." - John 1:2
"Jesus performed this [miracle] in Cana of Galilee as the beginning of his signs..." - John 2:11
"For from the beginning Jesus knew who were the ones not believing and who was the one that would betray him." - John 6:64
"He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things." - Colossians 1:18
"'You at the beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself...'" - Hebrews 1:10
"...you have come to know him who is from the beginning..." - 1 John 2:13
"...you have come to know him who is from the beginning..." - 1 John 2:14
"...These are the things that the Amen says...the beginning of the creation by God." - Revelation 3:14
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." - Revelation 22:13
It is quite clear that not all verses refer to the same beginning. Let the reader use discernment.
Earnest
gumby

AF....excellent job my friend, and thanks for the time you must have spent to address this. I have seen similar arguments with a commentary that speaks much of the same material you had.
Sometimes I guess certain things will not be clear.
I am sure if you were to get together with Ryrie, you could both go round and round for hours...and get no where.
Thanks for the info. and I plan on giving it to a pastor and let HIM disect it and I will let you know....unless I bail on the whole deal.
Dakota Red....quote:...then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.
Question. So isn't this saying, BEFORE he hands it back to the father, he isn't in subjection yet? It does say...THEN the son shall hand it back and SUBJECT what was subjected to him.
Moxy...don't be such a smart ass!
DakotaRed

Hi Gumby. I see Jesus as having all authority in heaven and earth right now. But, as he says in scripture, it was all given to him. If he were God or equal to God, would he really need it given to him? To be given, the giver should be in a somewhat superior position, as I see it.
RSV John 5:26. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself,
27. and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.
RSV Matthew 28: 18. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
RSV Matthew 11:27. All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
RSV Philippians 2: 9. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,
Yes, I see jesus handing all things back to God, after all enemies have been defeated, the last being death. For lack of a better explanation, I see God placed all authority in Jesus, as an owner of a business would place it in his son. A manager has claimed that the company has done well only because of the owner and that without him, it would falter. The owner knows this to be a ludicrous claim and to prove it, hands it all over to the son he trusts, knowing the business is set up to stand on it's own. Of course, the corrupt manager tries to bring the bsiness down, but the son is there managing for the owner and using the practices set up by the owner. All employees see that the business blossoms and does equally as well under the son, regardless of the things the corrupt manager tries to do to bankrupt the business. After it is proven beyond a shadow of doubt, that the owner has set up the business to run properly and does indeed have the right to run and own the business, the corrupt manager goes away and the son returns the business to the owner. All faithful employees that stood by the son now have a lifelong job with the owner, as he now runs his business the way he wishes.
Sorry if it sounds a bit JWish, but even though most cannot really explain why there is no trinity, I agree with them that there isn't. The owner still owns the company, but has placed full managership in his trusted son until such time as it is proven that his business practices are correct and proper. At least, that's the way I see it.
Of course, if one no longer believes in God, it's all moot anyway.
If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?
Amazing

The verses you cite are typical Trinitarian scriptures they use to show that Jesus is God. He is called Mighty God in some parts of the Bible. There are some good material on this topic on the Internet. I will do some checking and see what I can find about Jesus being from eternity (everlasting) to eternity.
gumby

Dakota Red.... To be given, the giver should be in a somewhat superior position, as I see it.
In the explanation of the TRINITY (if you wish to call it that)
Jesus is the one who exemplifies God. He is usually spoken of in terms of willingness to Honor God.
He is the WORD of God. I see nowhere he is LESS, if he gives something to God, or asks Gods will to be done and NOT HIS.
He and the father are one. They are always together in scripture (NT).
It is much EASIER to believe Jesus is NOT God, however too many scriptures do not rhyme were this to be so.
Most ALL of God's titles are also given of Christ.
Is a son LESS than his father? Why?
Only if he were created would he be LESS.
DakotaRed

In the explanation of the TRINITY (if you wish to call it that)
Jesus is the one who exemplifies God. He is usually spoken of in terms of willingness to Honor God.
By sheer definition of what you say, he cannot be God, honor God, exemplify God, and there still be only one God, as the Bible says there is.
RSV 1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4. Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
5. For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
6.yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Trinitarians try to use the above to claim Jesus as God because he is called Lord. Yet, the scripture clearly shows a difference between God and Lord. Only translators who support the trinity choose to capitalize Lord. There was no capitalization in the original writing.
All things FROM God, and THROUGH Jesus. Just as he said.
RSV Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord;
Only one, not three or three to compile one.
He is the WORD of God. I see nowhere he is LESS, if he gives something to God, or asks Gods will to be done and NOT HIS.
Being the Word of God does not make one God. John 1:1 says he is the Word, yet he was with God and is God! No language allows one to be ones self. Many translations use words such as “divine,” and “godlike.” As you know, the New World Translation uses the literal translation of “a god,” but that just causes confusion.
He cannot be equal to God, yet be facing subjection to God, can he? He did come to do his will, but the will of the one who sent him. No one knows the time of the end, not even the Son, but only the Father.
RSV John 14:28 You heard me say to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
As I said earlier, I take Jesus at his word.
RSV 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
He and the father are one. They are always together in scripture (NT).
Where do you get they are always together? Yes, they are one in the sense that they are in total agreement. But, if you think being one makes Jesus God, then you have given yourself a problem;
RSV John 10:30 I and the Father are one."
RSV John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
RSV John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
RSV 1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
RSV Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Being one simply means in agreement. Here, we are one united against the Watchtower and their unscriptural practices. But, that does not make us God any more than Jesus being one with the Father and the disciples being one with Jesus makes them God.
It is much EASIER to believe Jesus is NOT God, however too many scriptures do not rhyme were this to be so.
You are free to believe as you wish. But, you have failed to even address Jesus’ words at John 17:3. If he is God, as you contend, how does he call another, “THE ONLY TRUE GOD?”
Most ALL of God's titles are also given of Christ.
Most All? Are you aware that many of these titles are also given to men and satan? Yet, nowhere is Jesus referred to as the Almighty.
Is a son LESS than his father? Why?
A son cannot give life to the Father, can he? While that does not make him less a man, it does show that the Son cannot do everything the father does. He can only give life to his own son.
Only if he were created would he be LESS.
Obviously we disagree here. I believe he was created, you don’t.
RSV Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
Nowhere are we instructed in the Bible to accept Jesus as God, but as the Son of God;
RSV 1 John 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
Why not just take Jesus at his word and leave the scholars behind? If Jesus calls another the ONLY TRUE GOD and says that the Father is greater than he, I will take him at his word.
If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?
gumby

DK "All things FROM God, and THROUGH Jesus.
The scriptures say the same about God..all things were made for him AND THROUGH him. ( I'll find it if you need it.)
As for Headship....the head of the woman is man, head of man is christ, head of Christ is God.
Nothing here speaks of one being Greater in value,power,knowledge.
This headship thing is POSITIONALLY.
The bible say's..."he, being in the FORM of God....humbled himself and took the form of man.
So positionally, Jesus as man, didn't know the day or hour, said the father is greater than he was, not MY will but YOUR will be done.
These quotes by him makes him no LESS in value than the Father.
I think your arguments are good and we could go on and on.
I think to make this easier....let's see if we can prove Jesus had a begginning,... was created.
The scripture you used about him being "the begginning og God's creation can also be translated..."the origin" of creation.
This would make more sense with John 1:3 and colossians 1:15-18
If I am wrong.....I will change my beliefs on this!
I have no fear to say I'm wrong. Why believe a lie?
This, who is Jesus thing, was one of the biggest stuggles I had, when the relearning experience thing took place, upon leaving the witnesess.
The depressing part is this; This debate has went on for centuries, with both parties seeing it their way of seeing it.
The argument goes on and some get nowhere.
Jesus asked a good question when he said "who do YOU say I am?
simwitness

AlanF, a question for you.
If Jesus was just claiming to be "really, really old" why did the Jews start to stone him? It was allways explained to me that it was for blasphemy, or for his claim to be the "I AM".
DakotaRed

DK "All things FROM God, and THROUGH Jesus.
The scriptures say the same about God..all things were made for him AND THROUGH ( I'll find it if you need it.)
RSV Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;
16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Here I see Trinitarians trying to play games with scriptures. Yet, no one pays the least bit of attention to the words of Jesus himself. Jesus is the image of God, not God. Man is also created in the image of God, yet is not God.
As for Headship....the head of the woman is man, head of man is christ, head of Christ is God.
Nothing here speaks of one being Greater in value,power,knowledge.
How can God, the Supreme Power of the universe, have a head over him and there still be only one true God? Does Jesus’ own words rattle trinitarians that much? Did not Jesus himself state that the Father was greater than he?
This headship thing is POSITIONALLY.
The bible say's..."he, being in the FORM of God....humbled himself and took the form of man.
So positionally, Jesus as man, didn't know the day or hour, said the father is greater than he was, not MY will but YOUR will be done.
These quotes by him makes him no LESS in value than the Father.
Sorry, but being “in the form of” simply expresses that he was also a spirit before becoming a man. Nothing in the Bible ever states that it is only “positionally,” that came from man in his feeble attempts to justify the trinity.
Jesus’ own words always directed all to the Father, claimed the Father was greater, did as the Father taught him.
RSV John 4:34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work.

RSV John 5:36-37
36 But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me.
37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;

I think your arguments are good and we could go on and on.
I think to make this easier....let's see if we can prove Jesus had a begginning,... was created.
The scripture you used about him being "the begginning og God's creation can also be translated..."the origin" of creation.
This would make more sense with John 1:3 and colossians 1:15-18
This is the crux of the Trinitarian non-trinitarian argument. Currently, nothing can be absolutely proven by the Bible. We all have to research things and arrive at our own conclusions. Personally, I tend to take things a bit more literal than many and have never accepted that Jesus is or can be God Almighty. The majority disagree. But, in all fairness, the majority don’t really research anything any more than the average JW does.
As for saying the word, arche, used at revelations 3:14 can also be translated as “the origin,” that is another translation trick to try to place the trinity in the scriptures. To claim that Jesus actually had a beginning is to totally disprove the trinity, right? Yet, at Rev. 3:14, we see exactly that. Translators then claim it must also mean the origin, yet not one other place in scriptures does the Greek word arche get translated as “the origin.”
If I am wrong.....I will change my beliefs on this!
I have no fear to say I'm wrong. Why believe a lie?
I can only recommend what you are doing. Research and discuss. But, seek out Jesus’ own words over those of mankind. He seemed pretty clear to me as to just who he is.
This, who is Jesus thing, was one of the biggest stuggles I had, when the relearning experience thing took place, upon leaving the witnesess.
The depressing part is this; This debate has went on for centuries, with both parties seeing it their way of seeing it.
The argument goes on and some get nowhere.
Jesus asked a good question when he said "who do YOU say I am?
Yes, I agree. It is an endless debate, but one I see as one of the few debates that actually could affect salvation. I was lucky, I didn’t have to relearn about the trinity when I got involved with the JWs as I have never believed it in my whole life. Everytime I have got into a real deep discussion about the trinity with a Trinitarian, it ultimately reverts back to something along the lines of it is just as mystery and has to be accepted. I disagree. 1 Thess 5:21 tells us to test everything and hold fast to what is good. How do you test an incomprehensible mystery?
Also;
RSV John 18:20 Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world; I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together; I have said nothing secretly.

Jesus spoke openly and said nothing in secret. How could he have kept the secret of is being God from the disciples or the entire world? How could he have inadvertently taught he was God, but kept it such a mystery that has been debated for close to two thousand years? And finally, why was the decision as to whether or not the Church taught he was God left in the hands of a Roman Convert Politician, Constantine? Was his decision based on scripture and prayer, or a desire to hold his empire together?
I wish you good luck in your search. I searched for years to see if there was truth to the trinity and didn't find it. But then again, I never believed in it anyway.
If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?
Moxy

all religious figures are gradually deified by their followers. the person of jesus fits the model perfectly. the general order is: pauline epistles -> synpotic gospels -> john's gospel -> post-apostolic fathers -> nicea.
pauline epistles: jesus is holy from resurrection. his earthly life is of no significance whatsoever, no hint of pre-human existence. (note that not all the epistles traditionally attributed to paul are actually pauline.)
synoptic gospels: jesus is holy during life. can be futher divided between mark and the later matthew/luke. mark has jesus holy from baptism. pre-baptism life of no significance. matthew/luke has jesus holy from birth, no pre-human existence mentioned.
johns gospel: holy from 'the beginning.' deification hinted at but unclear.
post-apostolic: further refinement of deity teaching, but controversial.
nicea: codified as doctrine.
it fits so perfectly, that i had to literally smack myself in the head that i hadnt seen it during my time as a witness. but i am baffled that so many trinitarians in this day and age seem unable to perceive it. not all believers of the trinity doctrine are so blinded by faith. some admit that the teaching was gradual just as it appears, that the earliest writers did not understand it but that god revealed it gradually to the church as time went on. this at least makes some kind of consistent sense. i reserve my strongest bafflement for the mental capabalities of those who think the trinity is taught thruout the entire modern bible.
mox

Did Jesus have a BEGGINING?

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