gumby said:
: In a thread called" Can any JW answer this" by Jerome, Alan F had stated that
the term EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING applied only to the God of Israel. He could
find no scripture in which this term applied to Jesus.
: I found some good info. on this:
: Micah 5:2 says of Jesus; " who's origins are from old, from ancient times".
What does this mean?
: Charles c. Ryrie, a notable theologian states that the words, "FROM OF OLD"
is the same translated word used of God and his eternity in Hab.1:12.
Ryrie is right about the word being there, but if he's implying that there's
a necessary connection between the usages in these passages, he's wrong.
I looked up these and a number of other passages using various online
resources and found a Strong's Lexicon here: http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html
Strong's gives the exact words used for "of old" and "everlasting, and in the
passages below I put the numbered reference to the word in Strong's in square
brackets, like this: everlasting [5760].
In the NIV Micah 5:2 reads:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins
are from of old [6924], from ancient times [5769]."
In the KJV Micah 5:2 reads:
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of
Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in
Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old [6924], from everlasting [5769].
So the expression "from of old" is from Strong's reference 6924 in the Hebrew
section.
In the NIV and KJV Habakkuk 1:12 reads, respectively:
"O Lord , are you not from everlasting [6924]?"
"[Art] thou not from everlasting [6924], O LORD ...?"
So these two translations render the same Hebrew word quedem (Strong's 6924)
as "from of old" and "everlasting". Note also that the Hebrew word `owlam
(Strong's 5769) is rendered as "ancient times" and "everlasting".
The question now arises whether these words can be used in other ways than
to mean "everlasting". Naturally, the answer is Yes. Consider the following
passages from the KJV:
Genesis 6:4:
"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the
sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them,
the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old [5769], men of renown."
Deuteronomy 32:7:
"Remember the days of old [5769], consider the years of many generations."
Micah 7:14:
"Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell
solitarily [in] the wood in the midst of Carmel: let them feed [in] Bashan and
Gilead, as in the days of old [5769]."
So here we find that the Bible uses "of old" to mean "ancient times" as well
as "everlasting". The same can be shown of quedem (Strong's 6924) as
the passages below show.
Genesis 49:26:
NIV: "Your father's blessings are greater than the blessings of the ancient
mountains, than the bounty of the age-old [5769] hills."
KJV: "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my
progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting [5769] hills."
Exodus 40:15:
NIV: "Anoint them just as you anointed their father, so they may serve me
as priests. Their anointing will be to a priesthood that will continue [5769]
for all generations to come."
KJV: "And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father that they
may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely
be an everlasting [5769] priesthood throughout their generations."
Leviticus 16 34:
NIV: "This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made
once a year for all the sins of the Israelites."
KJV: "And this shall be an everlasting [5769] statute unto you, to make an
atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year."
Habakkuk 3:6 is particularly interesting because it uses both of these words,
as well as a third one to express similar concepts of great age:
NIV: "He stood, and shook the earth; he looked, and made the nations tremble.
The ancient [5703] mountains crumbled and the age-old [5769] hills
collapsed. His ways are eternal [5769]."
KJV: "He stood and measured the earth he beheld, and drove asunder the nations;
and the everlasting [5703] mountains were scattered the perpetual [5769]
hills did bow: his ways [are] everlasting [5769]."
For completeness, here are the definitions for the above three words given
at the online Strong's: http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html
5769 `owlam o-lawm' or lolam {o-lawm'}; from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e.
the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e.
(practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with
prepositional prefix) always:--alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance,
eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time),
(of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).
Compare 5331, 5703.
5703 `ad ad from 5710; properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication)
duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either
with or without a preposition):--eternity, ever(- lasting, -more), old,
perpetually, + world without end.
6924 qedem keh'-dem or qedmah {kayd'-maw}; from 6923; the front, of place
(absolutely, the fore part, relatively the East) or time (antiquity); often
used adverbially (before, anciently, eastward):--aforetime, ancient (time),
before, east (end, part, side, -ward), eternal, X ever(-lasting), forward,
old, past. Compare 6926.
Here are similar definitions from the same website, but this time from
the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon:
05769 `owlam {o-lawm'} or `olam {o-lawm'} from 05956; TWOT - 1631a;
n m
AV - ever 272, everlasting 63, old 22, perpetual 22, evermore 15,
never 13, time 6, ancient 5, world 4, always 3, alway 2, long 2,
more 2, never + 0408 2, misc 6; 439
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting,
evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
05703 `ad {ad} from 05710; TWOT - 1565a;
n m
AV - ever 41, everlasting 2, end 1, eternity 1, ever + 05769 1,
evermore 1, old 1, perpetually 1; 49
1) perpetuity, for ever, continuing future
1a) ancient (of past time)
1b) for ever (of future time)
1b1) of continuous existence
1c) for ever (of God's existence)
06924 qedem {keh'-dem} or qedmah {kayd'-maw} from 06923; TWOT - 1988a;
AV - east 32, old 17, eastward 11, ancient 6, east side 5, before 3,
east part 2, ancient time 2, aforetime 1, eternal 1, misc 7; 87
n m
1) east, antiquity, front, that which is before, aforetime
1a) front, from the front or east, in front, mount of the East
1b) ancient time, aforetime, ancient, from of old, earliest time
1c) anciently, of old (adverb)
1d) beginning
1e) east
adv
2) eastward, to or toward the East
It pays to do some research before blithely accepting the word of even
supposedly good scholars, because all of them have biases and agendas.
: Also John 8:58 uses the word "I AM" of Jesus, and in EX:3:14, it is used of Jehovah.
: When Jesus claimed to be "I AM", the Jews picked up stones to kill him for blasphemy.
Nonsense. This is an ancient and very common claim, but it is easy to see
why it is completely nonsensical. First note the exchange between Jesus and
the Jews. He implied that he saw Abraham, which would make him older than
Abraham. John 8:57 has the Jews exclaiming, "You are not yet fifty years old,
and you have seen Abraham!" In effect they said, "You can't possibly be that old!"
Jesus answered by telling them that he was indeed that old:
From the New Living Translation:
"Jesus answered, `The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!' "
From the Worldwide English New Testament:
"Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.' "
There are a number of other decent Bible translations that render the passage
similarly. Why do they render it this way, and not as the NIV, KJV and many
others do? First note that the latter have adopted the spurious ancient claim
that the simple statement "I am" refers back to an ancient formula given in
Exodus 3:14. This claim is merely an assumption and cannot be proved; indeed,
there is good evidence that there is no connection.
First, Exodus 3:14 can be translated in ways other than "I am", and plenty of
good translations do so. I don't have online access to enough translations to
show this, so you can look them up for yourself. The general idea is that
"I will be what I will be" is a perfectly reasonable rendering.
Second, the Jews in essence asked Jesus how old he was, and he answered
in kind: "I'm really, really old." Why would he answer such a question with
a recitation of an ancient formula? Look at the following sequence and tell
me which makes more sense:
Jews: How old are you?
Jesus: Before Abraham was born I am.
OR:
Jews: How old are you?
Jesus: Before Abraham was born I was.
OR:
Jews: How old are you?
Jesus: Before Abraham was born I existed.
It is obvious which of these is nonsensical, when context is taken
into account.
The Greek phrase for "I am" is ego eimi. Here eimi is in the
present tense. However, in Greek, as in many languages such as French, a
present tense is often used as a past tense. For example, a French speaker
might want to say:
"I went there ten years ago."
He would say:
"Je suis alle la il y a dix ans."
Literally:
"I am gone there it there has ten years."
The word for "am" is "suis" and is in the present tense. But by standard
usage, the past tense is almost always rendered by two constructions that
are something like "I am gone" or "I have gone" in English.
Because the Greek word for "to be" and "to exist" is eimi, and the
past tense is sometimes rendered by a present tense, the phrase ego eimi
can properly be rendered as "I am" or "I was" or "I exist" or "I existed".
Context tells the reader which is meant.
In the NT there are many examples where an apparently present tense really is
the past tense by this usage, including phrases like "ego eimi", if I remember
right. So claims that the present tense is required for ego eimi
in John 8:58 are spurious. At best the argument remains unresolved.
: Here are other notable statements from A bible dictionary about Jesus:
All of the passages you cite have been disputed by scholars. They remain
ambiguous and what appears in a given translation is the opinion of
the translators.
AlanF
