Scary Stuff

by Farkel 93 Replies latest jw friends

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  Berengaria

  A Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge

  As part of his work in revising the laws of Virginia during the late 1770s and early 1780s, Thomas Jefferson put forth a bill that has become one of his most enduring works on the subject of education: Bill 79, "A Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge." Its oft-quoted preamble reads as follows:

  Whereas it appeareth that however certain forms of government are better calculated than others to protect individuals in the free exercise of their natural rights, and are at the same time themselves better guarded against degeneracy, yet experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms, those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny; and it is believed that the most effectual means of preventing this would be, to illuminate, as far as practicable, the minds of the people at large, and more especially to give them knowledge of those facts, which history exhibiteth, that, possessed thereby of the experience of other ages and countries, they may be enabled to know ambition under all its shapes, and prompt to exert their natural powers to defeat its purposes; And whereas it is generally true that that people will be happiest whose laws are best, and are best administered, and that laws will be wisely formed, and honestly administered, in proportion as those who form and administer them are wise and honest; whence it becomes expedient for promoting the publick happiness that those person, whom nature hath endowed with genius and virtue, should be rendered by liberal education worthy to receive, and able to guard the sacred deposit of the rights and liberties of their fellow citizens, and that they should be called to that charge without regard to wealth, birth or other accidental condition or circumstance; but the indigence of the greater number disabling them from so educating, at their own expence, those of their children whom nature hath fitly formed and disposed to become useful instruments for the public, it is better that such should be sought for and educated at the common expence of all, than that the happiness of all should be confided to the weak or wicked:...[1]

  The Bill was presented in the House of Delegates in 1778 and 1780, but was not passed; James Madison presented the bill several more times to the state legislature while Jefferson was serving in Paris as Minister to France. A much-revised version was finally passed into law in 1796 as an "Act to Establish Public Schools."[2]

  - Anna Berkes, April 2009
• 

  LisaRose

  The statistics Farkel quoted are from Common Core, an advocacy group that developed a set of standards to improve education in America. While it is a legitimate group, you have to wonder if they used selective data to prove that their standards were needed. It's funny because they are trying to fix the problem, and their standards have been adopted by most states, but that part didn't get included in the option, just the doom and gloom, "kids are stupid now" part. Whatever the case, I am sure their are many challenges to educating children today. I do think each generation thinks the younger generation isn't as smart as they were. I think there is a natural tendency to forget how stupid you were in your youth and exaggerate how dumb today's kids are. I heard the same things when I was young. I do think computers have changed how we learn, in ways both good and bad.

  I have my own stupid younger person stories. I was over charged for a candy bar. When I pointed it out to the clerk, I said "You charged me 88 cents, it should have been 55 cents". After a moment of wheel spinning, she says, "So, I owe you 11 cents, right?". At another store, a customer asked why he was charged 4.67 for a set of photos, when it was 4.25 for a roll of 24 (remember film?) The clerk tells him "I push the yellow button" as if somehow that explained anything. The man repeats his question, so she calls a supervisor. After a discussion with him, she then says "It's tax". The man says "No, this is before tax". He goes back to the photo dept, and comes back to inform her that it was because there are actually sometimes more than 24 photos on a roll, you are charged per photo.

  While I don't agree that all kids are stupid these days, I do think No Child Left Behind has been a failure and is making things worse, not better. I do think education has been dumbed down. It does seem scary that education is getting expensive, but jobs that require an education are getting harder to find. I worry about my grandson, who just graduated high school. He is going to college, on his own, with grants and loans. Will he be able to finish? Will he find a job when he graduates?
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  jgnat

  Are you smarter than a fifth grader?
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  Berengaria

  LisaRose, can you link the Common Core you speak of?
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  LisaRose

  http://www.corestandards.org/in-the-states
• 

  Farkel

  Beks,

  Nice Jefferson quote. Very Jeffersonian. Note that he wrote that long before we even had our Constitutional Republic and he wrote it for the Virginians. In that context it is idiotic not to agree with what he wrote. In fact, I fully embrace what he wrote.

  Now tell me where he even implied that it was the job of a FEDERAL Government (which didn't even exist at the he wrote it) to provide the education for our children. Better yet, tell us all where the FEDERAL government now is or should be soverign over the States or local governments in providing our children with a good education. Just name the article and paragraph in the United States Constitution where they are granted that power, please. The Federal Government ONLY has powers which are specifically enumerated in the Constitution. There are about 17 or 18 of them and providing schooling is not one of them. The "General Welfare" clause doesn't cut it. Read the Federalist. That clause was mainly and almost exclusively meant to protect us from foreign invasion, and not meant for the Federal Government to tinker with our school system. That is why I despise George Bush for his No Child Left Behind tinkering. He should have been tarred and feathered for that one.

  ResistenceIsFutile,

  You again blathered:

  : There is also currently a higher percentage of educated Americans than at any other point in U.S. history. As measured by the percentage of Americans with four year college degrees.

  That assumes a college education implies graduates are better educated than children in my generation who merely graduated from High School. I've had a half-dozen college Graduates who worked for me, including one who had an MBA from USC. I fired him in two weeks. He was an idiot. The others were also soon let go because, simply, they were not that articulate nor educated. I had another one who graduated from Harvard with a major in real estate finance interview with me. He didn't have the skills to market my sophisticated major institutional real estate analytical software I was promoting. I did not hire him. He was unqualified to represent it. He didn't even understand the complicated loans that were commonplace for major commercial real estate at the time!

  As I believe I stated, many college degrees today only insure that the graduates are at least more literate and well-rounded than non-college graduates. It does not necessarily mean they are better educated than those of a few generations back, though, as you implied using your citation.

  To be fair, several decades ago I took a test that was given in the late 1800's which was given to 8th or 9th graders and which must be passed in order for them to get their diplomas. I failed miserably! I would assert that today's PhDs would have a hard time passing that one.

  I still assert that today's students are not given the same education we were given in my generation, and anecdotal or not, I see it in the real world almost every week.

  The grammar used today by the young-uns is atrocious! I shudder to think what the HR people think when they interview those people and hear how they butcher our language. Then again, maybe the HR people talk like that, too!

  Sigh.

  Farkel
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  Resistance is Futile

  That assumes a college education implies graduates are better educated than children in my generation who merely graduated from High School... It does not necessarily mean they are better educated than those of a few generations back, though, as you implied using your citation.

  Are you seriously implying that the average college graduate today with a bachelor's degree is less educated than the average high school graduate in your generation? What decade did you graduate from high school? I'm just curious when this "golden age" of education occurred.

  To be fair, several decades ago I took a test that was given in the late 1800's which was given to 8th or 9th graders and which must be passed in order for them to get their diplomas. I failed miserably!

  Are you aware of the fact that only about 7% of young adults graduated with high school diplomas in the late 1800s?

  http://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93442.pdf

  Based on that historical fact it's clear that the average young adult today has a vastly superior education compared to someone in the late 1800s. As to why you failed miserably on the test, did it ever dawn on you that perhaps it's because you're simply not as intelligent as you thought?
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  Resistance is Futile

  It's pretty apparent that the average American today is more educated than in the past few decades, as demonstrated by the increase in the percentage of citizens with high school diplomas and college degrees. If you want to stick to your guns, and maintain the belief that education has gone to hell since the "glory days" of your high school years, that's fine. And if you can find any actual scientific evidence to support that belief, I'd be more than happy to look at it.

  and anecdotal or not

  Just so there's no confusion, your experiences with the graduates that worked for you is most definitely anecdotal. And while I do find your experiences entertaining and amusing, it would be misguided to draw some sort of conclusion about the general population based on your reports. Especially in light of the fact that we have verifiable scientific data that allows us to compare education levels throughout US history.

  

  http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/11/05/record-shares-of-young-adults-have-finished-both-high-school-and-college/2/
• 

  Farkel

  ResistenceIsFutile,

  Your response is sophomoric at the very best. For any of your arguments to stick, i.e. more college graduates today than in the past, you must first prove that those who made it to college were at least as well-prepared with the same amount of education as they were say, 50 years ago when I was in High School. Since you weren't in High School 50 years ago or even alive 50 years ago, you have NO personal anecdotal evidence. I do. I also raised 4 children and know intimately what they were taught in high school. My oldest daughter is 44 years old. She's probably about twice as old as you are, given your immature and silly comments.

  The ONLY comments I've seen about how wonderfully educated our young folks are today are from our young folks who don't have a firsthand clue about how wonderfully educated we were. Why don't YOU find some evidence from someone who has lived through my generation AND yours who will validate your thin and vapid assertions, because you obviously are clueless. One cannot know what bad times are when one has only lived through good times. Likewise, one cannot know what a piece-of-shit education is when they haven't lived in a time when a good and rounded education was the norm. (At least where I grew up.) Please note that I am not arguing the typical codger argument about how disrespectful, thoughtless, selfish and rebellious the youngsters are as codgers have been doing for centuries. I am arguing about EDUCATION today compared with yesterday. That is quantifiable and whether a codger makes it or a 5th grader makes it, it is a different animal than that gripe I heard my grandparents and parents make about my generation when I was young. In fact, Socrates whined about it 300 years before Christ Jesus was born.

  I could give you numerous examples of what I mean, but with your likely inferior education you would merely dismiss it and say, "that stuff is not relevant today and is worthless." You would say that because you haven't read nor been taught what I read and was taught in just High School. You simply have no personal frame of reference.

  You are like a nippy Chihuahua, biting at my ankles just to make everyone think you are a St. Bernard when you are just a puny little Chihuahua. You irritate me. Run away little boy and pat yourself on the back and tell yourself how well educated you are. Damn the facts, just do it.

  Farkel
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  Berengaria