There Is No 'Heavenly Hope'!

by The Searcher 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jwfacts

    Isaiah 51:6 "Raise YOUR eyes to the heavens themselves, and look at the earth beneath. For the very heavens must be dispersed in fragments just like smoke, and like a garment the earth itself will wear out, and its inhabitants themselves will die like a mere gnat. But as for my salvation, it will prove to be even to time indefinite, and my own righteousness will not be shattered."

    Psalm 102:25-26 "Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth itself, And the heavens are the work of your hands. 26 They themselves will perish, but you yourself will keep standing; And just like a garment they will all of them wear out. Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will finish their turn."

    So is it going to last forever, or will it wear out and perish? You are taking the Scriptures you want to believe, and dismissing the ones that you don't.

    As the Watchtower shows, Ps 37 is considered to be a poetic promise that the Jews would retain possession of the promised land.

    "Since Psalm 37:29 has been translated "The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever," does it refer simply to Israel's permanently occupying the Promised Land?" Watchtower 1986 Jan 1 p.31

  • Indian Larry
    Indian Larry

    Below is some research I am doing on whether or not the bible holds out the hope of heaven for all, earth for all, or the two class system that Rutherford thought.

    First off is Jesus return to be visible or invisible like Russell said?

    Acts 1:11) 11 and they said: “Men of Gal′i·lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.

    (Matthew 24:30) 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(sounds visible to me)

    (Titus 2:13) 13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus, (manifestation sounds like something you would see)

    (Zechariah 14:3, 4) . . .. 4 And his feet will actually stand in that day upon the mountain of the olive trees, which is in front of Jerusalem, on the east; and the mountain of the olive trees must be split at its middle, from the sunrising and to the west. There will be a very great valley; and half of the mountain will actually be moved to the north, and half of it to the south. (Hard to stand on a mountain in the middle east and be in heaven at the same time)

    (Matthew 26:29) . . .But I tell YOU, I will by no means drink henceforth any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with YOU in the kingdom of my Father.” (How could he drink of the vine if he was not on earth. Do grapes grow in heaven)

    (Matthew 25:31-33) 31 “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. (If the nations are to be gathered before Jesus that sounds like he will be ruling on earth to me)

    (Revelation 1:7) 7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen. (every eye will see him = visible return)

    Where will Jesus rule be?

    (Acts 13:32) 32 “And so we are declaring to YOU the good news about the promise made to the forefathers,(What was the promise made to the forefathers? To occupy the land and to rule over the earth, from Israel. To my knowledge there was never a promise to the forefathers of going to heaven)

    (Romans 15:8) 8 For I say that Christ actually became a minister of those who are circumcised in behalf of God’s truthfulness, so as to verify the promises He made to their forefathers,(see note above)

    (Matthew 6:9, 10) . . .Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. (If you read this scripture without any preconceived notions about 144,000 ruling in heave then it does seem like the kingdom would be UPON EARTH)

    (Revelation 5:10) 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.. . . (Kingdom Interlinear Translation reads: rule as kings UPON the earth)

    (Acts 15:16) . . .‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, (I am not a bible scholar, but this sounds like the earth to me)

    (Revelation 21:2, 3) . . .. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.

    (Psalm 72:7-9) 7 In his days the righteous one will sprout, And the abundance of peace until the moon is no more. 8 And he will have subjects from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth. 9 Before him the inhabitants of waterless regions will bow down, And his very enemies will lick the dust itself. . . (again, I am not a scholar but this scripture certainly sounds like it is speaking of a kingdom on the physical earth)

    (Isaiah 2:3) . . . And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.

    Kingdom of the Heavens = Kingdom of God

    So far I have only found the phrase “kingdom of the heavens” in Matthew. It can be seen clearly from the scriptures below that when Matthew speaks of the “kingdom of the heavens” he does not mean the kingdom IN the heavens. He means the kingdom of God.

    (Matthew 3:1, 2) . . .In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Ju·de′a, 2 saying: “REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near .”

    (Mark 1:14, 15) 14 Now after John was put under arrest Jesus went into Gal′i·lee, preaching the good news of God 15 and saying: “The appointed time has been fulfilled, and thekingdom of God has drawn near. Be repentant,. . .

    (Matthew 13:24) . . .Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. . .

    (Mark 4:26) . . .So he went on to say: “In this way the kingdom of God is just as when a man casts the seed upon the ground. . .

    (Matthew 19:23) . . .But Jesus said to his disciples: “Truly I say to YOU that it will be a difficult thing for a rich man to get into the kingdom of the heavens.

    (Mark 10:23) . . .After looking around Jesus said to his disciples: “How difficult a thing it will be for those with money to enter into the kingdom of God!”

    (John 3:3) . . .In answer Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    (John 3:5) . . .Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Does the average Witness expect to see the kingdom of God?

    No. The average witness expects that only the 144,000 will see the kingdom of God. This is why in the parable of the wheat and the weeds in the July 15 Watchtower the caption next to the drawing of the wheat says that the wheat are only the anointed. Of course that raises the question: If the average witness is not wheat what is he? That is off this topic though. The average witness does NOT expect to enter the kingdom of God. The average witness believes that is reserved solely for the anointed.

    (John 3:5) . . .Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    The faithful slave teaches us that only the 144,000 are born of the spirit. They also teach that only the 144,000 are “sons of God” and apply this scripture to themselves only:

    (Galatians 4:3-7) 3 Likewise we also, when we were babes, continued enslaved by the elementary things belonging to the world. 4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, that we, in turn, might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Now because YOU are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his Son into our hearts and it cries out: “Abba, Father!” 7 So, then, you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, also an heir through God

    Question that raises is if the average witness can not consider himself to be a “son of God” (according to the FDS), then what are they?

    (1 John 3:10) . . .The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. (are the anointed saying that only they carry on righteousness? If only they are children of God that is the implication)

    (Matthew 5:9) 9 “Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God.’ (only the anointed are peaceable? Isn’t it ironic that a couple of thousand JW’s died in concentration camps because they were peaceable but according to the slave class they are not considered “sons of God” and won’t be until they prove themselves for 1000 years more. In the meantime Rutherford who tried to placate Hitler is NOW a son of God, same thing with those who associated with the UN, they are sons of God now but not)

    (Galatians 3:26-29) . . .YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise. (note that the promise to Abraham was an earthly promise. Not heavenly)

    We have always been taught that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will never go to heaven and that they will be resurrected to earth. The scripture below shows that they will be in the “kingdom of the heavens” so obviously the paradise on earth is at least part kingdom of the heavens

    (Matthew 8:11) But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will com and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens.

    So, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be on earth, and the bible says that they will be in the kingdom of god, but the Jehovah’s witnesses can not be in the kingdom of God because that is limited only to the 144,000 according to the “faithful slave”

  • Rose Mary
    Rose Mary

    There are some difficulties—celebrated difficulties—in connection with the ransom teaching!

    For example, Jesus himself is not aware that “through one man all became sinners, hence through him all are going to be forgiven.”

    Because he categorically declared: “A GOOD man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.”—Mathew 12:35

    And next verse says each one will receive appropriate reward (Mathew 12:36)

    Hence Jesus says some are “good,” hence not in need of any sacrifice like ransom sacrifice.

    Those who die too do not need ransom sacrifice “as the wages sin pays is death.” (Romans 6:23) This means those who die are absolved of their sins because of the very fact they died. “He that is dead is freed from sin.” (Romans 6:7) Put it simply:

    THE GOOD do not need ransom

    THE DEAD do not need ransom (because all will die at some point anyway)

    Then for whom did Jesus die?

    Again, in the case of Jesus, who sacrificed whom is also a question. Jesus prayed ‘remove this cup if possible?’ (Luke 22:42)

    The fact is that Jesus was a threat to the Religious establishment of that time because of his simple teaching. Enmity was also aggravated by Jesus’s scathing criticism of them, calling them hypocrite, white-washed tombs, brood of vipers, and also publicly whipping them out of the temple—that too TWICE. And they got rid of him! Here, where is the sacrifice? Or who sacrificed whom?

  • Vanderhoven7

    Excellent collection of scriptures Indian Larry. Thank you.

  • Ucantnome

    Psalm 37:29 (NRSV)

    'The righteous shall inherit the land, and live in it for ever'

    The way I understand it from Vines the word 'eres' can mean land and I think maybe this is the word used here. It can mean it in a political sense. Psalm 37 talks of the righteous and the wicked and I see this relating to the promise to Abraham and his seed through which we gain a righteous standing before God. His Kingdom and Mount Zion (Heb 12:22-24)

  • The Searcher
    The Searcher


    Very well presented outline & easily understood!

  • Indian Larry
    Indian Larry

    Thanks guys!

    What I want to try to get across to family is the main two scriptures:

    (John 3:5) . . .Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    (Matthew 8:11) But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will com and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens.

    so if the average witness hopes to see the "ancient worthies" as Rutherford put it, they HAVE to be born of water and spirit. The "slave" reserves that for only the 144,000. This is in total disagreement with the bible, although it certainly does bring to mind one scripture

    Matt 23:13 “Woe to ? YOU , scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ? YOU ? shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for ? YOU ? yourselves do not go in, neither do ? YOU ? permit those on their way in to go in."

    In other words by following the religous leaders of that time, people were kept from the kingdom of the heavens (kingdom of God), the same is true today. The odd thing is that six or seven million people can't see that. Of course who am I to talk. I did not see it for 40 years either.

  • Mary
    The parable of the rich man and someone called Lazarus was simply that - a parable, which Jesus used to drive home his point.

    Why would Jesus base a parable on a (supposedly) false doctine? All of his other parables were based on events or something that was real and that the first century Jews would be familiar with. Everything from a mustard seed to a wedding feast, hidden treasures, fishing, lost sheep, money, virgins, homes built on sand or rock, etc. were all included whenever he gave them a parable but suddenly that doesn't apply to the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus? Gimme a break.

    As has been shown, there are plenty of scriptures that clearly show that the bible teaches that there is a life beyond this one. The only way you can get around that is by twisting the scriptures because you have a pre-conceived idea as to what you want it to say.

    I didn't write Psalm 37:29 - "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it", but I believe it!

    Once again, you're only seeing what you want to see. The preceding verses were written for the Israelites and are talking about how they were to be righteous; to 'depart from evil and do good'. It involved 'following the Laws of God' which naturally at that time, included the 10 Commandments---something that Witnesses believe is not binding on them today. If they followed this righteous life, they would "inherit the land" (Psalms 37:29) specifically, the land of Canaan which was vitally important to them at that time. These verses have nothing at all to do with the pre-conceived idea that all humans would remain forever upon the earth.

  • Rose Mary
    Rose Mary

    Indian Larry

    You have done a wonderful job—I am far behind you, I did not see Matt 23:13 for a few years!


    Your insight into all the parables and equating parable of Lazarus with them all make sense!

    And defining the righteousness as “turning away from evil and doing GOOD” from Ps 37:27 is excellent. Because doing GOOD only makes you the real child of God, whose primary attribute is GOODNESS (Mark 10:18). Naturally the good have to live FOREVER, like their Father!

  • Vanderhoven7

    Mary: If the literary form of the Luke 16 accounts are either "historical narration" or "parable", your point is well made.

    But I humbly submit that both naratives in Luke 16 are spoofs/parodies designed to make a laughingstock of common Pharisaic teaching and practice (.i.e. covetousness and heartless self-justification respectively).

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