How exactly did Paul keep in touch with his network of churches across the empire...

by mP 84 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  mP

  Terry:

  The Romans lasted two thousand years and it wasn't from not getting things right.

  I think applying Occam's Razor here makes sense.

  Is it more likely the smooth functioning of empire was made possible by:

  A. Lousy mail service?

  B. Fast and efficient mail service?

  MP:

  There was no mail system until recent times. It took thousands of years for the average person to be able to mail a simple parcel or letter. That is historical fact. You are inventing a postal system equivalent and public that you have simply no proof.

  The Roman world was a very different one. They survived with a terrible number system and didnt have the number zero. Crazy but true.
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  Jeffro

  How exactly did Paul keep in touch with his network of churches across the empire...

  Obviously, he didn't need to.

  The Watchtower, 15 August, page 22:

  The Governing Body does not keep a list of all partakers, for it does not maintain a global network of anointed ones.*
  *See the article “The Faithful Steward and Its Governing Body,” in the June 15, 2009, issue of The Watchtower, page 24.

  It's a pity their footnote now needs a footnote explaining that their article from 2009 no longer applies.
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  mP

  Jeffro:

  I guess that quote basically admits that Paul never wrote a single letter because he prayed and they heard.
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  John_Mann

  About the existence thing, the existence of a random normal person in history is relevant. If you live your life without claiming to be a messenger from god to tell about eternal life, secrets of universe, etc, you don't have to prove nothing about your existence to the future generations.

  But what about a supposed superman on earth?

  What about if you can ressurect a person but can't write something in a kind of magical time resistant paper or vellum?

  If we have a vellum of graphene with a LCD screen from 2000 years ago I would bet some coins in this tale.

  He ressurected a man!

  Extraordinary claims needs extraordinary proofs.

  When you have extraordinary claims with no extraordinary proofs the doubt must be default.
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  HowTheBibleWasInvented

  I dealt with this topic on my youtube channel. (HowTheBibleWasMade)

  Roman roads were quite we established in the mid first century. However Paul mentions in 2 Corinthians highwaymen. The marine roautes were freed of pirates earlier for the mst part and thus the main danger was shipwreck (Also mentioned in 2 Corinthians)

  In most of his letters Paul wrote with others and sent the letter by someone else. In fact Paul probably didn't travel very far outside the Asia Minor/Macedonian churches.. (Jerusalem and Rome being the exceptions)

  Also Paul's letter are one-sided<<< Meaning we don't have the letters sent to Paul.

  One thing we know is that Paul seemed to be absent too much. He probably lost the churches in Galatia. His churches in Corinth decended into moral degradation as seen in 1 Corinthians 5 and 6. Later Corinth was taken over by powerful preachers who Paul condemns in 2 Corinthinians 11 and 12.

  Thessolonica was a joke. Paul made up the idea of heavenly life in 1 Tessolonians 4. (Expanded later in 1 Corinthins 15)

  The Roman churches didn't think much of Paul's law-bashing. Romans is an apologetic.

  Philippi is the exception. They seemed to have a better relationship to Paul.

  Interesting after Paul's death.... John of Patmos and Clement took over and if you read Revelation and 1 Clement you will find they didn't like Paul much lol.
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  Terry

  MP:

  There was no mail system until recent times. It took thousands of years for the average person to be able to mail a simple parcel or letter.

  500BC - Roman Postal System

  

  The idea of relays appears to have originated in the Persian Empire in the 6th Century BC, though it may have been copied from the Assyrians.

  Parts of the well organised Persian systems outlived the Persian Empire and continued to operate in Egypt, where it was seen and copied by Augustus, the first Emperor of Rome (30 BC- 14 AD). The carving shown here is of a light two wheeled chariot used in the reign of the Emperor Augustus 30 BC – 14 AD

  Communication was so important to the Romans, that wealthy young romans were taught reading and writing skills.

  Towards the end of the 1st century AD a famous Roman writer called Pliny was one of the Emperor Trajan's officers who issued the valuable permits which allowed people to use the Imperial post. Some of the letters which he sent to the Emperor and which the Emperor wrote back to him have survived.

  

  The large empire of the ancient world depended on organised permanent, far reaching posts to circulate laws and gather intelligence. Classical Greece on the other hand could conduct much of its government by word of mouth because it consisted of small fairly self contained city states. Highly trained corps of messengers were maintained to carry urgent official mail.

  Roman letters relating to the Roman postal service

  The Emperor Trajan to Pliny, The Emperor Trajan to Pliny,

  Postal permits that have expired must not be used. So I make it a special rule to make sure that I send out new permits to those who need them all over the Empire in good time.

  A Roman soldier's brother sent this letter. It was written in the mid-second century AD at the site of a fort where soldiers were guarding a gold mine near the Red Sea.

  Rustius Barbarus to his brother Pompeius, greetings!

  How come you haven't answered my last letter if you received the loaves of bread I sent you? First I sent you 15 loaves with Popillius and Dutoporis, then I sent you another 15 as well as a vase with the carter Draco. Do you realise how much wheat that used up! I even sent another 6 loaves with the cavalryman Thiadices, who said he could deliver them to you himself. Please have me some decorated knives made by the fort blacksmith, for my personal use and make them as beautiful as possible. Write to me so that I can send you some more bread in payment or even some money, whichever you wish. I want you to know that I am getting married. Once I am married I will let you know so that you can come and visit us.

  Goodbye.

  Regards to Julius.

  (Roman letters adapted from: "Roman Civilisation, source book II: the empire" eds. N Lewis and M. Reinhold, pub. Harper Torchbooks 1966)
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  mP

  Terry

  Communication was so important to the Romans, that wealthy young romans were taught reading and writing skills.

  mP:

  First of all lets add some of the missing facts. Only 5% of the population could read and even less could write.

  Im not disputing that messenger systems existed. Of course they did, im disputing the problem that these were limited to the government and the rich and not the public.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cynwolfe/literacy_and_education_in_the_Roman_Empire

  Estimates of the average literacy rate in the Empire range from 5 to 30 percent or higher, depending in part on the definition of "literacy

  Theres a big difference between being able to read basic text and actually being able to write which would be required to form some communication. We dont appreciate the difference but this is a big one. Even until recent times Kings couldnt read or write.

  Most people were simply too poor, the average person was struggling to live and did not have money to hire teachers for their kids. Schools simply did not exist. Something as valuable as education which costs a lot of money woulld not and was not free Kids had to work with mum and dad froma young age. Only rich people could afford this luxury, because of the costs involved. Hungry kids who dont work and teachers salaries are something a humble family could not afoord.

  When few people can read or write, theres even less momentum behind a need for a public mail system. In recent times when kids started to learn how to read , communication volumes increased and the need for a public mail system becamse a real necessity. This is why the Royal Post appeared. More people knew how to read & write and they wanted to correspond.

  Terry

  The Emperor Trajan to Pliny,

  The Emperor Trajan to Pliny, ... Towards the end of the 1st century AD a famous Roman writer called Pliny was one of the Emperor Trajan's officers who issued the valuable permits which allowed people to use the Imperial post . Some of the letters which he sent to the Emperor and which the Emperor wrote back to him have survived.

  mP; Mentioning emperors and the devices and services available to them is not significantly different to those available to the average man. Empererors could and probably did have entire legions of men delivering letters in their service. P had neither. Show me an example of an average person using this mail system. Im interested in this evidence but what constitiutes "people' who could use hte Imperial post. Definitions are important. just look at the US constitution, which suposedly read all men are created equal, until you learn that blacks arent counted as people for them. If there was a public mail system finding an example should be trivial after all there would have been millions of items of correspondance for hundreds of years used by nearly a hundred million people. In the Roman army only upper classes could become soldiers. This is in effect the opposite of todays military organisations.
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  mP

  @How

  Roman roads were quite we established in the mid first century. However Paul mentions in 2 Corinthians highwaymen. The marine roautes were freed of pirates earlier for the mst part and thus the main danger was shipwreck (Also mentioned in 2 Corinthians)

  mP:

  Of course there were theieves robbing people on the Roman roads and pirates at sea. That doesnt actually show or prove a mail system that was affordable and able to be leveragd by the puvlic existed.
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  mP

  @How

  Also Paul's letter are one-sided<<< Meaning we don't have the letters sent to Paul.

  One thing we know is that Paul seemed to be absent too much. He probably lost the churches in Galatia. His churches in Corinth decended into moral degradation as seen in 1 Corinthians 5 and 6. Later Corinth was taken over by powerful preachers who Paul condemns in 2 Corinthinians 11 and 12.

  mP:

  While everything you say is true, it doesnt actually explain how P came to know about these troubles. That is the basis for my concern. How did all these churches manage to find where P was so someone could send letters that grabbed his attention.

  We have churches in what we call modern Italy, Greece and Turkey, quite a significant area. Imagine someone in family doing a european tour for years and you wanted to keep in touch with them. This would be quite an achievement if you could not leverage the internet, phones, or any courier or mail system and had to make use of equivalents that the Romans had.

  How does one find a moving target in an empire with limited communication systems in the ancient world ?
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  mP

  @Terry

  Rustius Barbarus to his brother Pompeius, greetings!

  How come you haven't answered my last letter if you received the loaves of bread I sent you? First I sent you 15 loaves with Popillius and Dutoporis, then I sent you another 15 as well as a vase with the carter Draco. Do you realise how much wheat that used up! I even sent another 6 loaves with the cavalryman Thiadices, who said he could deliver them to you himself.

  mP:

  This example is clearly not a public postal system. its a mate who happens to be a messenger for the army or a friend travelling who is doing a favour for another mate.

  Im sorry but your examples are emperors and military men asking fellow officers for a favour, and cant be counted as services available to men like Paul regardless of cost. Regarding the later example quoted above, we both seem to be in agreement that messags were not passed via friends as this cost is prohibitive.