A Video Series about 607 BC vs 587 BC

by Londo111 272 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Jeffro

  scholiar:

  One trip took four months which included a party of 1000 persons but the former trip was much larger with a more detailed description of the returnees so common sense would indicate that this journey was in fact much larger unless they travelled by rail, ship or plane.

  They had an additional three months on top of the length of the later journey. And you have them travelling at the same time of year anyway. Insight (volume 1, page 458) agrees with the journey of the larger group taking four months; I'm assuming they weren't basing that on "rail, ship or plane". Idiot.

  Historians discount 538

  Which ones?

  Scholar is not impressed

  Still talking about yourself in the third-person? You should probably get that checked. I don't really care what 'impresses' you. You're clearly beyond help (at least for now). As stated earlier, I reply to your drivel for the benefit of other readers.

  mischevious diagrams
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  No it is not laughable at all but is simply recognizing the reality of history. History contains specualation, uncertainty, openness to interpretation. The Jews in that time did not have the benefit of a dated, daily newspaper which if they had and if such documents were preserved then we would have some historiucal certainty that my friend is simply impossible. We have to deal and interpret known and knowable facts and all of the evidence points to the 537 as the best date possible.

  You mock our interpretation of the seventy years but your interpretation is built on quicksand. You have no starting date for the seventy years, you have a fuzzy date for the ending of the seventy years. Also, you have no agreement for its duration. In fact your interpretation is simply one amongst many and is also all over the place. You do not know the precise year for the Fall of Jerusalem whether its 587 0r 586. You may be certain in your own mind about these matters as shown in your blog but outside, within scholarship the real experts on these matters disagree totally. In the final account your opinion carrys no weight at all.

  scholar JW
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  Jeffro

  In fact your interpretation is simply one amongst many and is also all over the place.

  At the risk of stating the obvious... so is yours. (Though mine isn't "all over the place".) Except no one outside of JW fantasy land agrees with yours. At least mine has broad agreement. And mine is entirely consistent, and does not rely on magical thinking or circular reasoning.

  You're a waste of time. I'm not interested in your bluster. Provide the sources of the supposed 'historians' supporting your claims or just get lost.
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  We simply do not know the precise timing and length of the first return but four months would have to have a been a minimum. We do not know the month in which they left Babylon nor do we know the precise month when the proclamation was made. What has been established is that this Decree of Cyus was a significant event and that its proclamation must be a factor.

  scholar JW
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  Jeffro

  Sources indicating return in 538 BCE from Google Books search. Not an exhaustive list.

  • Fire Bible-NIV-Student - Page 580, Donald Stamps, Carey Huffman, J. Wesley Adams – 2009: “In stage one (538 BC), 50000 exiles returned, led by Zerubbabel and Jeshua (cf. Ezra 2).”
  • Fire Bible Student Edition: New International Version - Page 580, Hendrickson Publishers, Carey Huffman – 2010: “Note that the first group of Jewish exiles in 538 BC returned to Jerusalem”
  • Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible - Page 449, 2000: “According to Ezra, the exiled Jews returned to Judah and Jerusalem en masse in response to a decree by Cyrus king of Persia (538; 1:1-4).”
  • The Catholic Encyclopedia: Volume 8, Charles George Herbermann, Edward Aloysius Pace, Condé Bénoist Pallen – 1913: “I. HISTORY OF THE JEWS. — This history may be divided into various periods in accordance with the leading phases which may be distinguished in the existence of the Jewish race since the Return in 538 bc”
  • A History of the Christian Tradition: - Page 22, Thomas C. McGonigle, Thomas D. McGonigle, James F. Quigley – 1988: “The Return from Exile In 538 BCE a new political power, Persia, ...”
  • The Controversial Sholem Asch - Page 269, Ben Siegel – 1976: “Apocalyptic tendencies that led to both Jewish and Christian Messianic movements were apparent as early as Ezekiel, but they did not "flower" until after the Jewish return (538 BC) from Babylon. “
  • Kings of the Jews: the origins of the Jewish nation - Page 152, Norman Gelb - 2010 - 246 pages : “RETURN TO ZION Like their return from Egypt almost eight centuries earlier, the return of the Jews from Babylonia was in waves, beginning in 538 BCE.”
  • Jews and Christians: Graeco-Roman views - Page 3, Molly Whittaker – 1984: “When the Persians took Babylon, some of the exiles were permitted to return (c. 538), although many remained...”
  • The amazing adventures of the Jewish people - Page 37, Max I. Dimont – 1984: “The first Zionade, launched in 538 BCE, had a distinguished leadership — two princes of the house of David, ...”
  • The Creative Era Between the Testaments, Carl Gordon Howie, Carl Gordon Howie – 1965: “Under provisions of the royal decree, Sheshbazzar, who was appointed governor of the Jerusalem area, and his company of fellow Jews left Babylon for Jerusalem during the reign of Cyrus. The immediate purpose of their return in 538 BC ...”
  • Fantastic Victory: Israel's Rendezvous With Destiny - Page 129, W. Cleon Skousen – 2011: “One year later, in 538 BC, Cyrus authorized 50000 Jews to return to the ruins of their beloved Jerusalem for the purpose of rebuilding it. These 50000 “Zionists” required four months to reach their destination and were led by a man who ...”
  • The Last Tango in Baghdad - Page 1, Albert Khabbaza MD, Albert Khabbaza, M.d. – 2010: “The Jews were dispersed mostly to Persia and Babylonia. The opportunity to return arrived in 538 BCE when Cyrus of Persia issued the famous decree permitting the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their Temple.”
  • The Age of the Maccabees, Annesley William Streane – 1898: “BEFORE entering on our main subject, it is desirable that we should take a brief retrospective glance over that part of the earlier history which lies between the return of the Jews from their captivity in Babylon (538 BC)...”
  • Holman Concise Bible Dictionary - Page 210, Holman Bible Editorial Staff – 2011: “Jehoiachin's grandson, Zerubbabel, led the first exiles back from Babylon in 538 BC (Ezra 2:2; Hag. 1:1).”
  • The Jewish People: A Pictorial History, Israel Program for Scientific Translations, Israel Program for Scientific Translations – 1973: “Permission was given to the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple. The first return in 538 bce involved 42.360 free men and 7337 slaves; the territory assigned to them was small..”
  • Merriam-Webster's collegiate encyclopedia - Page 857, Merriam-Webster, Inc – 2000: “Cyrus the Great allowed them to return in 538 BC, and the Temple of Jerusalem was rebuilt.”
  • The myth of the Jewish race - Page 97, Raphael Patai, Jennifer Patai – 1989: “We can gain a very rough idea of the extent of Jewish-Babylonian intermarriage in the half-century that elapsed between their arrival as exiles in Babylon and their first return to the land of Judah (538 BC)...”
  • A Guide Through the Old Testament - Page 16, Celia Brewer Marshall, Celia B. Sinclair – 1989: “Jews return to Judea from the Exile beginning in 538”
  • Exile: Old Testament, Jewish, and Christian conceptions - Page 89, James M. Scott – 1997, “including the return in the year 538 under the leadership of Sheshbazzar (Ezra 1 ).”
  • A Concise History of the Jewish People - Page 11, Naomi E. Pasachoff, Robert J. Littman – 2005: “the return to Israel under the Persians in 538 BCE”
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  Our interpretation is based on Scripture and harmonizes well with the historical evidence, it is simple and not convoluted. Your hypothesis which has some agreement with scholars is based on higher criticism which denies the Bible as God's Word. I would rather have a belief system that has the approval of God than a belief system that is based on human reasoning.

  My experience with you in the past is that you have no interest in what is published in academia so it is fruitless in supplying details about what current scholarship is sayiong about the date for the Return and just to muddy the waters for you, the date which has been proposed is 535 BCErather than 538 BCE.

  scholar JW
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  Jeffro

  scholiar:

  Your hypothesis which has some agreement with scholars is based on higher criticism which denies the Bible as God's Word.

  Wrong again, liar. I've reconciled the scriptural accounts on the matter completely.

  I would rather have a belief system that has the approval of God than a belief system that is based on human reasoning.

  Extraordinarily presumptuous to claim you have "the approval of God" simply because you accept the beliefs of a minor Adventist sect.

  My experience with you in the past is that you have no interest in what is published in academia

  Now you're resorting to outright lies. Fact is, you just can't back up your claims. Get lost.
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  What a nice little list you have presented. So is one to now surmise that scholarship is now saying that 538 BCE is the official date for the Return. Can now from this list have it positively established that 538 BCE is the precise date. If this is the case then why is it not the case that such research has not yet appeared in the scholarly literature? All that you have done is simply cherry picked or someone else a fearsome poster has provided you this information. In order to impress scholar you must quote much better sources, sources that simply dont give a date but explain why a date is selected above and beyoud other dates.

  scholar JW
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  Why don't you post a list of sources that nominate 537 BCE for their surely must be at least one other source out there apart from us?

  scholar JW
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  Jeffro

  I did not claim that no sources suggest 537 (though none of those sources support 607). You said that scholars say 538 is "impossible". You lied.

  And still waiting for you to present the supposed "scholarship" and "scholarly literature" in support of your views. Of course, you know very well that scholarship does not support your views, and for that reason, you claim to accept 'the Bible' (the Watch Tower Society's interpretations thereof) in spite of scholarship.

  We're barely touching the fringes of the many problems with your 607 dogma, and you're already on the back foot trying to defend the 'maybe' in regard to the Jews returning in 537.

  It's just lie after lie after lie with you.

  someone else a fearsome poster

  Are you just putting random words together now? And it's called Google Books.

  In order to impress scholar you must quote much better sources

  LOL. I don't really give a damn what 'impresses' you. You were asked to provide sources not only repeatedly today, but years ago and you didn't. Still waiting on your chart of the divided monarchy too. I owe you nothing.