I still believe in the paradise earth.

by paul from cleveland 53 Replies latest jw friends

  • Ding

    I thiink WT leaders trust their own thoughts as the ultimate authority as well. They have convinced themselves that they are the "faithful and discreet slave," so whatever their minds come up with is "truth" given them by holy spirit. What they teach is "the truth" until they change it by getting "new light" (meaning until their minds come up with something different).

    Their fanciful Bible typologies have led to all manner of false teachings and failed predictions.

    Russell came up with chronological charts that had symmetry, so they HAD to be correct... He convinced himself that the Great Pyramid was "God's stone witness" so its measurements supported his charts (he even changed the length of the great passageway from one edition of his book to the next to accommodate a 40 year adjustment in his date system). He convinced himself that 1914 would be the date for Armageddon. When that turned out to be wrong, instead of abandoning the date as wrong, Rutherford changed it into the year of Jesus' "invisible presence" (which Russell taught was 1874).

    Rutherford came up with the date 1925 for the resurrection so in Millions Now Living Will Never Die, the Bible's Jubilee cycles "proved" 1925. After 1925 came to nothing, instead of saying, "I was wrong" (like Harold Camping finally did), Rutherford just kept going and had the WTS build Beth Sarim for the patriarchs. He came up with the two-class system, so JWs believe the Bible teaches it. (Rutherford also had a "Ruth class", an "Esther class," a "Mordecai class," and on and on. These individual "classes" have been abandoned by later WT leaders, but for years they were "the truth" because Rutherford trusted that what made sense to him was truth/)

    Livid that he had been sent to prison, Rutherford decided the "governing authorities" of Romans 13 couldn't be the world's governments, so he taught they were Jehovah and Jesus. Because of this, many JWs were forced to go to prison over the draft issue rather than being allowed to agree to alternative service.

    Fred Franz became convinced in his own mind that the "sabbath rest" of the "new system" had to parallel the six "thousand year days" of creation (another construct of WT leaders' minds). Based on his calculations, he hyped 1975 as "an appropriate time for God to act." He published as truth what his mind had produced and persuaded many JWs to give up homes and jobs to pioneer so as to promote his chronology of the end. It was the truth because he was the primary theologian of "God's organization". What he wanted to be true WAS true...

    Today there are millions of JWs worldwide whose lives are totally dependent on what a small group of JW leaders convince themselves is true. The fact that they think it is true is sufficient for them, because they have convinced themselves that they are God's channel of communication and that their thoughts come from God.

  • villagegirl

    Why do,you think no other bibllical religions teach this promise?

    In fact the theme of "Paradise Lost" and "Paradise Regained" is a common

    belief and the jw's are in no way unique or the inventors of this doctrine.

    Dante wrote an Epic Poem about it, Hieronymus Bosh (15th century)

    did paintings about it, as did Jan the Elder Bruegal (16th century)

    and Lucass the Elder Cranach (16th cent )

    The Persians also depicted Paradise on Earth.

    The Apocalypse of Ezra, a book in Jewish Pseudepigrapha,

    portrays paradise in this way:

    “For you Paradise is open, the Tree of Life planted, the future age and abundance

    are prepared, rest appointed, good words established, and wisdom defined.

    Evil roots are sealed up from you, and sickness extinguished from your path.

    Death is concealed; Hades fled; corruption sinks in oblivion; sorrow is gone,

    and in the end the gold of immortality is manifest” (The Apocalypse of Ezra, 8:52).

    Since paradise has been understood as a peaceful, delightful,

    and blissful place where people can live eternally without pain and death,

    it is no doubt that most people desire to go to there.

    The Quakers and early pilgrims depicted an Isaiah like future

    where the "wolf lies down with the lamb". Many 16th and 17th paintings about it.

    Again - Jehovah's Witnesses persist in their need to be "special" and have

    "special knowledge" There IS no "special knowledge" Its just that JW;s are isolated

    and limited in their world view by the teachings of the WT that warns them not

    to get educated or read "apostate" literature or the teachings of other churches.

  • gorgia2

    You mentioned 'Adam and Eve' - do you believe these were actual people? It seems there is still much for you to explore, learn & read. It's a never-ending process, this deconstructing and building back up again, after leaving the JW's.

    However your beliefs end up afterward, at least you will have given it your best efforts to come to your own understanding, rather than have GB brainwashing residue still nagging at your brain. There are many people on JWNet that have gone on to learn and thankfully share what they have discovered about history, theology, philosophy. All the knowledge the GB didn't want you to know.

    Keep seeking!


  • AndDontCallMeShirley


    I don't believe everything in the bible


    How do you determine which bits of the bible to cut?


    And this is the hypocrisy of religious people, including Christians.

    They declare the Bible to be the true word of God, and enthusiastically villify anyone who disagrees (occasionally with the threat of 'burning in Hell forever' for not believing).

    Then that same Christian will say they don't believe everything in the Bible.

    To your point, Punkofnice, how then does a Christian go about determing what is, or is not, true? By their own admission, the Christian is saying they accept some parts of the Bible are fictitious, unreliable and not to be taken seriously.

    Paul of Cleveland has revealed his method: he believes what feels good to him, while rejecting things he does not like or that he's apathetic about.

    So, Paul- if your god is not reliable enough for you to put trust in every word he's supposedly inspired in the Bible, why are you so confident of the concept of a "paradise earth"? (which, incidentally, is not a Biblical doctrine, as has already been pointed out and you ignore).

  • punkofnice

    ADCMS -

    Agreed. This is what worries me the most about all religion. It's a pick'n'mix of whatever oneself or the leader prefers.

    Paul of Cleveland has revealed his method: he believes what feels good to him,

    while rejecting things he does not like or that he's apathetic about.

    If the holy books are taken as a whole they reveal themselves to be nonsense. To make sense of them an individual must employ confirmation bias.

    When we have a belief such as 'paradise earth' which isn't even in the bible then the fun begins. We are then back to becoming sham theologians like Fred (Loooooonar year) Franz.

    Either take the whole bible or leave it alone.

  • villagegirl

    ADCMS and punkofnice - You both sound so arrogant and like you know-it-all

    ADCMS wrote "confident of the concept of a "paradise earth"? (which, incidentally, is not a Biblical doctrine,"

    It IS a Biblical concept, loss and renewal, paradise lost, paradise regained.

    Many Christian faiths have retained some version of this, the Adventists think

    people will as they put it; "put on spiritualized but physical bodies"

    and live on earth in a paradise. The point here is that it is not a

    concept unique or original to the WT society.

    More Bible bashing, Christian bashing, mockers of anything mystical.

    You two geniuses think you are philosophers men of reason, superior minds.

    What exactly are you arguing? Against the concept of a higher life form than yourself?

    Against the idea of other beings in the universe that take on other forms than yours ?

    Against the ideals of human advancement to higher states ? Against writings that

    attempt to define rules of conduct for societies?

    Writings that attempt to connect all humans in a universal oneness ?

    and by the way punkofnoce your icon is revolting and offensive.

    Whats the point of coming to a site visited by some people trying to

    find goodness, and hope outside the WT society, hoping they can leave safely

    and then encounter this kind of abuse. You two are ill tempered terrorists.

  • tec

    Not every christian declares the bible to be the word of God.

    Some, in fact, declare it NOT to be that; since that role belongs to Christ, THE Word of God.

    No one has to take it or leave it, with the bible.

    (However, if one were to take the bible as a whole, then the final message IN the bible is that one is to listen to Christ, that Christ is the Word of God. If one is doing that, then what to believe or not to believe depends upon Him (Truth) rather than what we want to believe or what doctrines religions have come up with on their own.)

    Anyone may choose whatever method they wish to determine what to believe.

    If we want the truth, however, then we should go TO the Truth. (and that is certainly not the wts, lol... but is IS Christ)

    As much as I wish everyone could be saved, as God does according to Peter (God wants all men to come to repentance), there are some who do not WANT the Spirit, and some who do not want to act in love or truth toward himself or his fellow man. But God is love, will do nothing against love (and truth stems from love). I know that some use that as a copout, like 'wait on jehovah', but that is not how I am using it. I just have found more and more, in looking to and listening to Christ, that while man has perecieved and written things as punishments from God; these were natural consequences and/or something done to PROTECT.

    We do need to see Christ, to see God. We are given no other Image or Word or Truth. Man keeps looking at God through man's own image, attributing anger or punishment to God... but this is NOT the image we are given. Too scary for some though, who want to reject God, to think that He truly could be as Christ showed Him to be, rather than as man and religion has shown him to be.



  • AndDontCallMeShirley


    ADCMS and punkofnice - You both sound so arrogant and like you know-it-all

    Our posts are in written form so it is impossible to "sound" like anything.

    We are talking about ONE subject here. Neither myself, punkofnice or anyone else claimed to "know it all'.

    The point here is that it is not a concept unique or original to the WT society.

    Neither of us said it was

    You two geniuses think you are philosophers men of reason, superior minds.

    In fact, I am a genius, but that is beside the point. Neither of us claimed to be philosophers, we are expressing our viewpoints. This is a public forum and we are responding to the OP. Has that fact somehow slipped past you, Villagegirl?

    As for the rest of your post, it is too nonsensical and filled with strawman arguments to dignify with a response. Nothing you brought up is relevant to this discussion nor to our comments.

    For all your ranting you failed to offer even one shred of evidence to support your claims. You've made wild assertions based on fiction and feelings, but offered no proof demonstrating any of it is true.

    Your angry diatribe is a predictable response from someone that has no real evidence to support silly claims. Furthermore, your immaturity is revealed in the fact that your first response is to throw a tantrum when faced with views that differ from your own.

    So, really, who's the" ill-tempered terrorist" ?

  • Dagney

    To some, a talking snake makes perfect sense.

  • AndDontCallMeShirley


    To some, a talking snake makes perfect sense.

    You are an ill-tempered terrorist! Do you think you know everything about snakes? Are you attacking the idea that snakes can't talk?

    I come here seeking safety from people that talk about talking snakes, and here you are abusing me.

    (note that I've offered no proof snakes can really talk. That would detract from my tantrum).

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