Can any Witness possibly anwser this question?

by jerome 132 Replies latest watchtower bible

apostate man

In case you missed this, a few things from
UnclePenns post...
Hey look ALAN, the NT is mentioned, WOW! Imagine that!
WHO IS GOD?
Jehovah
*De 6:4 Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
*De 32:39 no gods with Jehovah
No Other "Gods"
*Is 44:6-8 besides me there is no God. there is no Rock besides me.
*Is 43:10 Before me there was no God formed.
*Is 45:5,22 with the exception of me there is no God.
*Is 46:8-11 no other God, nor anyone like me.
No Other "gods"
*De 32:39 no gods with Jehovah
*Ex 20:2-3 must not have any other gods
ALL OTHER GODS OR gods ARE FALSE
This helps us understand that being God is much more than a title or a name. It is the very nature of the being so described as God. God is God because of who he is, not because people call him God.
WHO IS LORD?
God
*Ac 17:24 God, Lord of heaven and earth
*Ep 4:5-6 One Lord... one God and Father
*Ac 4:24 God... Sovereign Lord
*Ac 17:24 God... Lord of Heaven and Earth
Jehovah
*De 10:17 Jehovah is Lord of lords
*1Tim 6:15 Jehovah is Lord of lords
Jesus
*1 Co 8:6 one Lord, Jesus Christ
*Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ
*Ro 10:9 Jesus is Lord
*Rev 17:14, 19:16 Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of lords.
*Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
This verse (Lk 2:11) shows that Jesus was born Lord, not that he became Lord later.
HOW MANY LORDS ARE THERE?
One Lord
*Ep 4:5-6 One Lord... one God and Father
*1 Co 8:6 one Lord, Jesus Christ
*Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ
WHO IS SAVIOR?
God
*Titus 1:3 Our Savior, God
*Titus 3:4 Our Savior, God
* 1 Tim 1:1 God, our Savior
*2 Sam 22:3 God my Savior
*Ps 7:10 God, a Savior
*Ps 17:7 God, o Savior
*Ps 106:21 God their Savior
*Is 43:3 God your Savior
*Is 45:15 God of Israel, a Savior
*Lu 1:47 God my Savior
*1 Tim 2:3 our Savior, God
*1 Tim 4:10 God, who is a Savior
*Titus 2:10 our Savior, God
*Jude 25 the only God our Savior
Jehovah Alone
*Is 43:11 I am Jehovah and besides me there is no savior
*Is 45:21 Jehovah alone is Savior
*Hos 13:4 No savior but Jehovah
*Is 49:26 I, Jehovah, am your Savior and Repurchaser
*Is 60:16 I, Jehovah, am your Savior and Repurchaser
Jesus
*Php 3:20 we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ
Titus 2:13 we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Jesus Christ.
NWT introduces [the] into the previous verse to obscure that Jesus is called God there.
*Titus 1:4 God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior
*Titus 3:6 Jesus Christ our Savior
2 Pet 1:1 our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ.
NWT adds [the] to the previous verse to obscure the fact that Jesus is called God there.
*John 4:42 the savior of the world
*Ac 5:31 Chief Agent and Savior
*Ac 13:23 a savior, Jesus
*Ep 5:23 a savior of [this] body
*2 Tim 1:10 our Savior, Christ
*2 Pet 1:11 the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
*2 Pet 2:20 the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
*2 Pet 3:2 Who is being spoken of here? Jehovah or Jesus?
*2 Pet 3:18 our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
*1 John 4:14 the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world
Break the chains that bind you,
unless, of course, you're into that sort of thing.
gumby

Jesus is also called MIGHTY GOD, he is from EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING(which means time without end from both directions), he is called ALPHA and OMEGA.....the begging and the end....;or the origin.
How many titles are needed to convince people?
apostate man

One more final thought on this subject. It does not matter whether I proclaim to be a Christian or not. I did not write the Bible. I do believe totally what the Bible says and not what a human says it says.
Again, I have never been part of a Cult and never will be. I was raised in a church. First, I was in a Catholic church, then realized they were wrong and went to a Pentecostal Church. I have been out of that for about 10 years. I still believe in what they taught, even though I am not living my life as a Christian. Yes, I believe I am damning my own life and salvation by not doing this.
Recently, within the last few months, I have started going back(I went 5 times in Nov. and Dec.). I have my own "demons" to deal with. I am spiritually weak, but that still does not change what the Bible says or what I believe in. If you have read some of my posts then you would have known this.
Edited to add this.. Catholics believe in the Trinity, I do not. I believe no matter what you call God,(Jehovah,Jesus,Almighty,Alpha&Omega,etc.)there is only one God and only one God that we should serve and worship.
Break the chains that bind you,
unless, of course, you're into that sort of thing.
AlanF

Moxy:
Your point is exactly what I was trying to get across to the fuzzy thinkers who presented or supported the "1X1X1=1 proves the Trinity" nonsense. Units of "God" are nonsensical. Note what the brilliant mathematician Apostate Man said:
: Yes, 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1= 1
: JehovahxJesusxYahwehxGodxAlmightyxFatherxSaviourxSonxWordxHolySpiritxETC...= 1
This implies that the formula God<sup>N</sup>, where N is an integer, is a valid theological formula. But one wonders if N is allowed to be real, or even complex. Imagine the theological possiblities! My God! We've stumbled upon an entirely new branch of theological mathematics!
Apostate Man said:
: I thought I was posting with people smarter than some of you.
Stupid people are always the last to know.
: First, I didn't start the 1x1x1 thing, 4christ did.
So? You continued it, and expanded stupidly upon it. See above.
: I agreed with her that it does make sense,
A big mistake.
: even though THAT IS NOT THE BEST WAY TO PUT IT.
Best way to put it? It's such a dumb argument, it's not even wrong! It's not even in the running.
: Second, ALAN, WTF. You call me names and put me down
Because instead of using your God-given brain, you're just repeating dumb stuff you've learned from ignorant teachers, just as dumb Dubs keep repeating their dumb stuff.
Ever hear the old story about how the farmer got his donkey's attention with a two-by-four?
: and when push comes to shove, YOU BELIEVE THEIR ARE JUST AS MANY GODS AS I DO?
Sigh. Let me repeat: the Bible is clear on that. I personally barely believe in a Creator, much less the God of the Bible.
: Let me quote...
: . . .
: A.M.-"ONE GOD. Using a mathematical equation is not the best way to put it, I agree. 4christ said that also. "
: ALANF-"Apostate Kindergartener wrote: ONE
: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!"
: SO, what gives Alan? You agree with me the whole time and are pissed on HOW I came up with one God?
I don't give a flying f**k how YOU came up with "one God". What I am irritated with is your typical Fundy arrogance, as shown in your steadfast refusal to defend, time after time and when asked repeatedly, to justify in detail the claims you make. "It's so because I say it's so and I don't have to explain it to the likes of you!" is your refrain. You ignore arguments as you please and think you're above defending your claims -- exactly like such lights as You Know do. The worst of it is that you know you're making a garbage argument, but you're too arrogant to admit it -- again just like JW leaders and most JW defenders.
Don't feel singled out here, AM. I treat arrogant JW defenders with the same disdain.
: Or are you viewing One God differently than I am.
See above.
: Lets see, a conformist would say their
You do know that there's a difference between "their" and "there", right?
: is one God, Jehovah, and that Jesus and Satan are "other gods". Is that your stand, Alan?
I have no idea what you mean by "conformist", but at the very least, Jesus and Satan are "gods" because that is what the Bible calls them. The Bible may well also mean that Jesus is not simply "god", but "God" -- in a certain sense -- but I'm going to leave discussion of details of that for a future post.
:: Nowhere in the NT is the Holy Spirit spoken of as God, nor is Jesus spoken of as God.
: Wrong again Alan. Obviously you haven't read the scriptures Uncle Penn and myself put up on page 4, I think.
No, it is you who have not understood the scriptures. Show me a scripture that says, "the Holy Spirit is God" or "Jesus is God". You can't, and that's all I said.
gumby:
You Know has an agenda, of course, which apparently is to make himself look foolish. If you've fairly represented his argument, then you correctly point out that it is wrong.
In the passage you discuss, "In the beginning WAS the Word", the Greek word for "was" is more properly translated "had been", since it's in the imperfect tense. So it more properly reads, "In the beginning the Word had been", which supports your argument even better.
The question remains, Just what did John mean by "beginning"? If he was paralleling Genesis 1:1, then it clearly means "the beginning of the physical universe" because Genesis describes the creation of "the heavens and the earth". Obviously Genesis does not describe the creation of whatever "heavens" in which God "resides" as is evident from many other Biblical passages. Indeed, as 1 Kings 8:27 says, "The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you." which is obviously talking about the physical heavens. Because angels or whatever you want to call the spirit beings that live in the spiritual "heavens" along with God and the resurrected Jesus were obviously created some time before the physical "heavens and earth", it is not provable from the Bible whether John was referring to the "beginning" of the physical universe or to the "beginning" of all creation by God, including angels and such. Without being able to establish this with certainty, the arguments you've made about Jesus creating ALL things must remain speculative.
AlanF
Unclepenn1

Apostate Man- sorry dude. I was not implying that your posts were immoral or anything, I was sincerely asking if Alan had read your posts and come to that conclusion. OOPS, that's what happens when you try to rush and post while working. I had read your statement that you didn't believe in the Trinity and I guess wrongfully assumed that you were not a believer. Forgive me, please :)
Penn
gumby

...."he is from EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING"(which means time without end from both directions.
Thanks for your comments AF. I feel you speak in sincerness.
What do you feel about the scripture quoted above?
I have to go for awhile but will be back.
AlanF

Well, gumby, there are several scriptures that express a similar thought to the phrase you quoted, so I don't know exactly which one you're referring to. Nevertheless, in doing a word search for "everlasting" in an online NIV, I find that every reference is to the God of Israel. I have no problem with that, because the scriptures are clear.
AlanF
apostate man

While Alan did exceptionally well in Math class, he always seemed to daydream in his English classes.
: Lets see, a conformist would say their
You do know that there's a difference between "their" and "there", right?
Three;
Their.....shows possesion, adjective, The possessive form of "they".
There.....adverb, pronoun, adjective, noun, interjection
They're.....Short for "they are"
My earlier post has a typo in it. I don't go back and check for mistakes. I am soooo sorry I am not perfect like you.
Hmmmm. Maybe I am on to something.(Hey Alan, a great reply would be to say "Apostate Man said, "Hmmm, maybe I am on something"", just to give you a hand in insulting people, which you really don't need any help at.)
All the scriptures I quoted are good enough evidence to back up what I said. What, you don't know the scriptures? You don't know how to look them up? SAD SAD SAD If scriptures aren't good enough for you, then nothing will be.
:What I am irritated with is your typical Fundy arrogance, as shown in your steadfast refusal to defend, time after time and when asked repeatedly, to justify in detail the claims you make.
Takes a Fundy to know a Fundy. What part of these scriptures don't you understand? Its EASY TO READ. Are you actually saying that these scriptures can be translated sevceral different ways? I can see that, MAYBE, if they were all jumbled up or in very hard to understand, but come on, word for word, or is it the fact that NWT says Jehovah and all the rest say LORD? Is THERE some sort of confusion here? I don't get it, its so simple a 10 year old can figure it out, at least this part of the Bible.
UnclePenn, I am finding that there are different definitions of "TRINITY". Again, I agree with what you have said. Although, I do not believe in the Trinity as a Catholic does.
What is TRINITY? TRI-DEITY? THREE-DEITY? THREE-GODS? My short statement of faith would be this,
There is one God. This God is God,Jehovah,Jesus,Father,Son,Word,etc. all wrapped into ONE.
Jesus was GOD manifest in the flesh, as the Bible clearly states. Jehovah was the OT name for GOD.
Father,Son and Holy Spirit are different "relationships" of God to man.
The "Word" or the Bible, is Gods instructions for man.
The "Almighty, Prince of Peace, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Everlasting, Alpha and Omega" were all names given to Jesus, who is God manifest in the flesh. Can I make it any more simpler? It would take me all day to write out all the scriptures, word for word, that back this up. That is why I gave the list of scriptures that I did. Alan, are you lazy? Can't you pick up your Bible and read? Do you need someone to hold your hand and show you?
So, this is why most Bibles say in John 1:1 "...and the Word was God".
Think about the authors of the NT. When they wrote what they wrote, they had to of been laughed at and mocked to say that Jesus was God and he was born from a virgin. It HAD to be true for all of them to put their lives on the line and say these things. Back then, that easily would have got you stoned to death. Many people back then would have said that Mary was a whore, not a virgin. So what they have written must be true, if you believe in the Bible.
Alan this is true,
:Note what the brilliant mathematician Apostate Man said:
: Yes, 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1= 1
Do you have a different answer? You multiply any One thing by itself, no matter what you call it, and you still only get that one thing.
: What I am irritated with is your typical Fundy arrogance, as shown in your steadfast refusal to defend, time after time and when asked repeatedly, to justify in detail the claims you make. So all this is because you're irritated? I have defended what I have said, what am I doing right now? How much more can I do, short of showing up at your house with Jesus himself, to get you to understand? All I have are the scriptures!!!!! And what's your point, you agreed with me there is ONE GOD!
Break the chains that bind you,
unless, of course, you're into that sort of thing.
Moxy

alan, small correction i think:
In the passage you discuss, "In the beginning WAS the Word", the Greek word for "was" is more properly translated "had been", since it's in the imperfect tense. So it more properly reads, "In the beginning the Word had been", which supports your argument even better.
had been = perfect past tense
was = imperfect past tense
Jo1:1c uses the imperfect tense, 'was' is the appropriate english word.
mox
Unclepenn1

Alan wrote::: Nowhere in the NT is the Holy Spirit spoken of as God, nor is Jesus spoken of as God.
Do you really mean this, or do you mean that there aren't examples that you will accept? For instance in Acts chp 5, you are familiar with the story of Ananias and Saphira I am sure?
3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
Does it say that the Holy Spirit is God? Well, not in those exact words. Does it say that he lied to the Holy Spirit, and then in the same breath reveal that it was God that he lied to? YEP!
Probably not good enough for you Alan, but it works for me. Plenty more, but that will do.
Apostate Man- What you believe is called Modalism. Unfotunately that causes some problems theologically. Jesus prays to the Father, the Father loves the Son, The Spirit reveals Christ, The Father sent the Spirit, et al.
The best explanation is that since there is one God, yet the Bible calls 3 different persons God, then that can only mean what most call the Trinity. One WHAT and three WHO'S. A triune Godhead. Not God simply putting on different masks.
Penn

Can any Witness possibly anwser this question?

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