Valedictorian Rips Up Preapproved Speech, Recites Prayer Instead

by Sam Whiskey 469 Replies latest jw friends

  • Simon
    Simon
    I think you mean “political”.

    Wow, picking on a typo. Is that how weak your argument is?

    Lots of words Marvin, very little wisdom.

    Are you seriously trying to compare what that clown did with the actual wisdom that Mahatma Gandhi demonstrated? Get real ...

    I’m resistant to restriction of harmless religious speech at school sponsored events.

    So how will that work - will there be a panel to decide what is harmless and what isn't? Harmless to everyone or just a small enough percentage, a minority that can be trampled on? Or is it just you and your ilk that gets to decide? Or the majority? So Christians get to blab about their god and beliefs?

    What you describe is unworkable and fanciful. Educated people can be so unbelievably DUMB when it comes to common sense practical matters.

    Your argument boils down to your mistaken belief that religious views are innocent, non-threatening and innocuous and, for some reason, of value for those that don't hold them to listen to.

    And yet you still claim to value science and reason.

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    My advocacy is for the purpose of protecting against government overreaching to a point where you and I are prohibited from honestly sharing our personal beliefs at a public event when doing so represents no harm or threat to anyone.

    --

    That's adequately covered already:

    The Constitution

    The Bill of Rights

    civil liberties attornies

    The Supreme Court

    ---

    Marvin, I'm sure you haven't noticed but you're pretty much standing alone on this issue.

    Even Christians and other religious people posting here disagree with your particular arguments and interpretations, and they do not feel prayer is appropriate in school or school-sponsored events.

    You have stated several times you like to hear other people's views and learn from them. Yet, you've done nothing but resist and take issue with anyone who sees things a little differently than you.

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    government overreaching to a point where you and I are prohibited from honestly sharing our personal beliefs at a public event

    ---

    You're arguing the same baseless point, Marvin!

    No one was limiting his speech to where he could not share his personal beliefs. The only restriction was on reciting prayers, and the same rules were equally applicable to Muslims, Hindus, etc. Why can you not see this?

    Now, are you arguing this valedictorian was completely unable to express his personal beliefs unless he recited the Lord's Prayer?

    Then he's a doofus!!

    If he is so limited in intellect that he cannot express himself without using someone else's words, then his academic "achievements" seem pretty shallow, and are neither impressive not inspiring.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..

    No it doesn`t..

    What is Occam's Razor?

    Occam's (or Ockham's) razor is a principle attributed to the 14th century logician and Franciscan friar William of Ockham. Ockham was the village in the English county of Surrey where he was born.

    The principle states that "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily." Sometimes it is quoted in one of its original Latin forms to give it an air of authenticity:

    "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate"
    "Frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora"
    "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"

    In fact, only the first two of these forms appear in his surviving works and the third was written by a later scholar. William used the principle to justify many conclusions, including the statement that "God's existence cannot be deduced by reason alone." That one didn't make him very popular with the Pope.

    Many scientists have adopted or reinvented Occam's Razor, as in Leibniz's "identity of observables" and Isaac Newton stated the rule: "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances."

    The most useful statement of the principle for scientists is
    "when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better."

    In physics we use the razor to shave away metaphysical concepts. The canonical example is Einstein's theory of special relativity compared with Lorentz's theory that ruler's contract and clocks slow down when in motion through the ether. Einstein's equations for transforming spacetime are the same as Lorentz's equations for transforming rulers and clocks, but Einstein and Poincaré recognised that the ether could not be detected according to the equations of Lorentz and Maxwell. By Occam's razor it had to be eliminated.

    The principle has also been used to justify uncertainty in quantum mechanics. Heisenberg deduced his uncertainty principle from the quantum nature of light and the effect of measurement.

    Stephen Hawking writes in A Brief History of Time:
    "We could still imagine that there is a set of laws that determines events completely for some supernatural being, who could observe the present state of the universe without disturbing it. However, such models of the universe are not of much interest to us mortals. It seems better to employ the principle known as Occam's razor and cut out all the features of the theory that cannot be observed."

    But uncertainty and the non-existence of the ether cannot be deduced from Occam's Razor alone. It can separate two theories that make the same predictions, but does not rule out other theories that might make a different prediction. Empirical evidence is also required, and Occam himself argued for empiricism, not against it.

    Ernst Mach advocated a version of Occam's razor which he called the Principle of Economy, stating that "Scientists must use the simplest means of arriving at their results and exclude everything not perceived by the senses." Taken to its logical conclusion, this philosophy becomes positivism; the belief that there is no difference between something that exists but is not observable and something that doesn't exist at all. Mach influenced Einstein when he argued that space and time are not absolute but he also applied positivism to molecules. Mach and his followers claimed that molecules were metaphysical because they were too small to detect directly. This was despite the success the molecular theory had in explaining chemical reactions and thermodynamics. It is ironic that while applying the principle of economy to throw out the concept of the ether and an absolute rest frame, Einstein published almost simultaneously a paper on brownian motion which confirmed the reality of molecules and thus dealt a blow against the use of positivism. The moral of this story is that Occam's razor should not be wielded blindly. As Einstein put it in his Autobiographical notes:

    "This is an interesting example of the fact that even scholars of audacious spirit and fine instinct can be obstructed in the interpretation of facts by philosophical prejudices."

    Occam's razor is often cited in stronger forms than Occam intended, as in the following statements. . .

    "If you have two theories that both explain the observed facts, then you should use the simplest until more evidence comes along"

    "The simplest explanation for some phenomenon is more likely to be accurate than more complicated explanations."

    "If you have two equally likely solutions to a problem, choose the simplest."

    "The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."

    . . .or in the only form that takes its own advice. . .
    "Keep things simple!"

    Notice how the principle has strengthened in these forms which should be more correctly called the law of parsimony, or the rule of simplicity. To begin with, we used Occam's razor to separate theories that would predict the same result for all experiments. Now we are trying to choose between theories that make different predictions. This is not what Occam intended. Should we not test those predictions instead? Obviously we should eventually, but suppose we are at an early stage and are not yet ready to do the experiments. We are just looking for guidance in developing a theory.

    This principle goes back at least as far as Aristotle, who wrote "Nature operates in the shortest way possible." Aristotle went too far in believing that experiment and observation were unnecessary. The principle of simplicity works as a heuristic rule of thumb, but some people quote it as if it were an axiom of physics, which it is not. It can work well in philosophy or particle physics, but less often so in cosmology or psychology, where things usually turn out to be more complicated than you ever expected. Perhaps a quote from Shakespeare would be more appropriate than Occam's razor: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.".

    Simplicity is subjective and the universe does not always have the same ideas about simplicity as we do. Successful theorists often speak of symmetry and beauty as well as simplicity. In 1939 Paul Dirac wrote "The research worker, in his effort to express the fundamental laws of Nature in mathematical form, should strive mainly for mathematical beauty. It often happens that the requirements of simplicity and beauty are the same, but where they clash the latter must take precedence."

    The law of parsimony is no substitute for insight, logic and the scientific method. It should never be relied upon to make or defend a conclusion. As arbiters of correctness, only logical consistency and empirical evidence are absolute. Dirac was very successful with his method. He constructed the relativistic field equation for the electron and used it to predict the positron. But he was not suggesting that physics should be based on mathematical beauty alone. He fully appreciated the need for experimental verification.

    The final word is of unknown origin, although it's often attributed to Einstein, himself a master of the quotable one liner:

    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

    The pithiness of this quote disguises the fact that no one knows whether Einstein actually said it (this version comes from the Reader's Digest, 1977 [US: July, UK: October?). It may well be a precis of the last few pages of his "The Meaning of Relativity" (5th edition), in which he writes of his unified field theory: "In my opinion the theory here is the logically simplest relativistic field theory that is at all possible. But this does not mean that Nature might not obey a more complex theory. More complex theories have frequently been proposed. . . In my view, such more complicated systems and their combinations should be considered only if there exist physical-empirical reasons to do so."

    References:

      W. M. Thorburn, "Occam's razor", Mind, 24, pp. 287—288, 1915.

      W. M. Thorburn, "The Myth of Occam's razor", Mind, 27, pp. 345—353, 1918.

      Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time.

      Albert Einstein, Autobiographical notes

      Isaac Newton, Principia: The System of the World

      ...................................................................................................

      ...................................... photo mutley-ani1.gif... OUTLAW

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..A Wall of Words means I`m Right..

    ----

    So, what are you trying to say, Outlaw? LOL.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    LOL!!@DCMS!!..

    ...................................... photo mutley-ani1.gif... OUTLAW

     photo mutley-ani1.gif...OUTLAW

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    -

    “Wow, picking on a typo. Is that how weak your argument is?”

    Simon,

    I beg your pardon! I was not picking on a typo. I wanted to make sure you knew I was speaking of political speech and not simply what a politician says. Your use of “politican expression” prompted me to make what I was responding to clear.

    “Are you seriously trying to compare what that clown did with the actual wisdom that Mahatma Gandhi demonstrated? Get real ...”

    I was pointing out that use of “holy” text is legitimately used for political speech, and I see political speech in what Roy Costner did. I think I pointed that out sufficiently. You ignored that. So be it.

    “So how will that work - will there be a panel to decide what is harmless and what isn't?”

    Eventually it is determined by some panel somewhere. In the case of Pickens County School System the decision to prohibit what Costner did was made by a panel of 5 (I think) members of the school board in a 3 to 2 vote. But the ultimate determination hopefully begins with discussions among citizenry just like we’re engaged in here.

    “Harmless to everyone or just a small enough percentage, a minority that can be trampled on? Or is it just you and your ilk that gets to decide? Or the majority? So Christians get to blab about their god and beliefs?

    “What you describe is unworkable and fanciful. Educated people can be so unbelievably DUMB when it comes to common sense practical matters.”

    What I’ve described is democracy in action. What I’ve described is individuals engaging civic responsibility. In developed nations this is accepted as a good approach.

    “Your argument boils down to your mistaken belief that religious views are innocent, non-threatening and innocuous and, for some reason, of value for those that don't hold them to listen to.”

    No. I do not hold a general view that “religious views are innocent, non-threatening and innocuous.” In fact I believe that some religious views are very dangerous. I also believe that even innocuous religious views can be shared in threatening and harmful ways.

    On the other hand, I do not hold that all religious views are dangerous and I do not hold that all means of sharing religious views are dangerous.

    What I advocate is liberty to share our beliefs in ways that do not threaten others.

    The value of hearing beliefs of persons you disagree with is that like it or not you share the planet with those people and the more you learn about them the better prepared you are for life on planet earth. Learning and understanding people’s beliefs systems is a big part of the science of sociology. It’s also a big part of understanding the dynamics of political science. To me it appears you’re happily ignorant of each.

    “Marvin, I'm sure you haven't noticed but you're pretty much standing alone on this issue.”

    AndDontCallMeShirley,

    Yesterday you sent me a private message. In my response I pointed out that some issues have supporting arguments on each of two sides, including conclusions that are at odds. When an issue is important enough it’s worth engaging in discussion, even if you have to take on a less popular perspective to further the discussion.

    This subject is important to us all. If for no other reason than this I’m happy to take a minority position to have the issue fleshed out. Even if it means standing alone in this particular room of speech.

    Otherwise, the idea that having a minority or majority position suggests a view is right or wrong is a fallacy known as ad numerum. A closely related version is known as ad populum.

    “Even Christians and other religious people posting here disagree with your particular arguments and interpretations, and they do not feel prayer is appropriate in school or school-sponsored events.”

    So what?

    “You have stated several times you like to hear other people's views and learn from them. Yet, you've done nothing but resist and take issue with anyone who sees things a little differently than you.”

    Engaging a discussion and offering counter views is not resisting. Where I’m from that’s called healthy debate. Or, at the very least, adult conversation.

    In this case I’m still waiting for someone to offer to me some qualitative or quantitative evidence demonstrating that reading the lords prayer and expressing agreement with it represents a danger to anyone. Is that asking too much?

    I’m still waiting, and I’m still willing to listen to whatever that evidence is.

    On that note, did you peek at the editorial article I quoted above from the LA Times by Michael McGough? I don’t know his politics, but he sees an argument similar to my own and didn’t hesitate to share it, and he didn’t hesitate to also share the same understandable skepticism that people have on the Christian right. I understand and agree with both.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • Simon
    Simon
    Eventually it is determined by some panel somewhere. In the case of Pickens County School System the decision to prohibit what Costner did was made by a panel of 5 (I think) members of the school board in a 3 to 2 vote. But the ultimate determination hopefully begins with discussions among citizenry just like we’re engaged in here.
    What I’ve described is democracy in action . What I’ve described is individuals engaging civic responsibility . In developed nations this is accepted as a good approach.

    So democracy works by everyone having a say and then anyone who doesn't like the final outcome ignoring the concensus that was reached?

    There are times when civil disobediance makes sense. This isn't it. This is petty, lame, childish, selfish, dogmatic idiocy and nothing for the greater good or for any 'point' other than some brat who doesn't like being told to abide by some simple rules that aren't onerous or limiting at all.

    Have you learnt anything yet Marvin? Did you learn anything from the Lords Prayer that you didn't know already? When will you learn that your done.

  • Simon
    Simon
    In this case I’m still waiting for someone to offer to me some qualitative or quantitative evidence demonstrating that reading the lords prayer and expressing agreement with it represents a danger to anyone. Is that asking too much?

    Yes, because that is NOT what the issue is. The issue is whether religious prayers have a place or not and are appropriate or not in this setting and when it's been determined that they are NOT, whether it's right for someone to then take it on themseves to overrule the will of the people.

    Stop your lame attempts to keep twisting it into something it isn't. How about you prove to us that religion never harms anyone? Good luck with that ...

    The prayers are insulting and uncomfortable for those who don't want religion pushed on them, those who hold different religious beliefs or those who the prayers target.

    Marvin: I'm rapidly reaching the point where I'm going to class you as a troll because despite your cliaims I do not believe you are here to learn or discuss or debate, just to annoy and frustrate and ruin topics.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    -

    “No one was limiting his speech to where he could not share his personal beliefs. The only restriction was on reciting prayers, and the same rules were equally applicable to Muslims, Hindus, etc. Why can you not see this?”

    AndDontCallMeShirley,

    Respectfully, you understate the incident. Above I quoted and linked to an op-ed piece in the LA Times expressing Costner’s version of events in which he was allegedly “warned by school officials to refrain from any prayers or religious references in his remarks.” Do you see "or" in that sentence?

    If that report is true then Costner was not solely restricted from reciting a prayer. If you disagree then please explain what “warned by school officials to refrain from … religious references in his remarks” is supposed to mean.

    Moreover, because a government imposed prohibition is applied equally does not mean that government imposition is something other than an overreach into unalienable rights to exercise speech and religion. Have you read 1984? Everyone was treated equally. Yet the human right to exercise speech and religion were completely trampled by an out-of-control government system.

    “A Wall of Words means I`m Right…”

    Presumably that’s said of my participation. If so, the remark is silly insofar as I can see. Each of my remarks target specific things said in order to engage the subject. Addressing details is what substantive discussion is for.

    When I entered this discussion it was only to offer an observation that it’s usually short-minded people who feel threatened by another human being saying something they disagree with, and particularly when it’s of a religious nature. From there I was compelled to add detail because of requests. Things grew from there. Then I was branded as somehow breaching forum guidelines with result of a reduction my hard earned posting privileges. I’ve paid for my part of this discussion, and am glad to do it. Because the subject is important to me. Then what do you do? You mock my attempt to thoroughly respond as though an attempt, basically, introduce information ad nausem as though that matters.

    “Now, are you arguing this valedictorian was completely unable to express his personal beliefs unless he recited the Lord's Prayer?”

    No.

    In the end, I think Costner’s action during his graduation speech was more of a political statement than a religious statement.

    I have a question for you:

    - Do you think Roy Costner should be somehow penalized by authorities for what he did?

    If so, why so?

    If not, why not?

    Marvin Shilmer

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