23,720 JW child molesters

by silentlambs 62 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • SEAKEN2001

    Hello everyone,

    I've been following this thread with interest. This is obviously a very emotional issue for everyone. I can only imagine the horror of having gone through what some of you have, and are, going through. I hope that everyone will appologize to one another and get back to helping the abused and prosecuting the criminals.

    May I ask how many of you who have commented on this subject are lawers or judges in the US legal system? As I see this, most here are not lawers but are advocates and concerned individuals who have strong opinions about this issue. All of you want the same thing. I'm not sure you are all trying to understand one another and clarify your own positions. There is room for argument and clarification and it may prove to be a helpful thing should there be a chance to take this issue up in a court of law. However, I don't see this as merely a legal issue nor bound by legal parameters.

    I can't quite understand how any of us here, who have experience as former JW's or curently active JW's who recognize the claims of authority by the organization as false, can ignore that regardless of written policy, the WT machine will do whatever is in it's best interests, victims be damned. Why are some of us here picking up on possible inconsistancies of reporting when we know full well that the standard operating procedure for this organization is to cover up and protect their butt? Who among us is going to stand up in defense of the procedures used by the heirarchy in this organization in an effort to point out that not all JW's are bad? Does it matter that the elders, or even the Society men, think that they are doing what is right according to God's will?

    I think I understand Bill's frustration here, even though I too was disappointed with some of his remarks that could have been taken as offensive by some here who are obviously very sensitive over this issue. And I will admit that I am not as sensitive and I may have come on pretty strong in reaction to some of the criticism here as well, just as Bill did. What I don't understand is why some of us feel it is necessary to enter a legal debate and pick at straws when the reality of this whole issue should obvious to us all.

    The WT has clearly shown it's possition over the years and they will continue to do so. Wake up! They do not care about us! They only care about the organization! It may be tempting to try and be reasonable and avoid attacking the WT because you know people inside who are good people. Your knoble attempts at sparing them will not be returned. They do not care about you. Again. They do not care about you! They will protect themselves and their organization at all costs in the name of God. If that means lying and deceiving, or any other act you may personaly object to, they will do it. And you'll get stepped on in spite of your taking the high road. Get it? They don't care about you!

    I have an idea. Why don't we give Bill the benefit of the doubt and work to understand where he's coming from before we attempt to justify our own idea of what is right and just end up pissing him off? If you need clarification, fine. But don't be surprised if you get yelled at because you haven't done your own homework. 'Waiting' made it pretty clear that had we followed the links and done our homework we could have got the clarification we needed.

    I'm sure Bill understands that in the legal arena he will need to be fastidious and careful. I do not believe his post on this thread was intended as a legal brief. I took it as a point of information and a link to specifics on what this information means for his SL website. I, for one, appreciated it very much.

    Thank you Bill.


  • plmkrzy

    This is what I am guilty of having the nerve to ask.

    23,720 JW child molesters on file.
    What kind of time frame are we looking at? Is this a file that contains all reported cases over the past twenty years?
    Cases pending further investigation?
    Actual Charges filed?
    There is a lot left un said.
    For that I was called names and accused of being a liar and a deceitful person with a personal agenda who supports child molestation. This was way out of line especially for someone who is supposed to be an advocate for victims.
    Well I AM A VICTIM! That didn't stop him from attacking me did it?
    And what was I attacked for?
    I asked a couple of questions that were more then reasonable.
    I did not make ONE accusation in any way shape or form. NOT ONE!
    I have a right to ask questions about something that is this personal to me and even if it wasn't I still have a right to ask a question. There is nothing wrong with that. OR IS THERE?

    Why Bill chose to FLY off the handle because of a few questions that could have been EASILY answered is beyond me.

    What EVER his reasons are they DO NOT justify his response.

    I'm suppose to apologize to a man who belittled me for no reason a man who SAY'S he is on MY side and MY children’s side?
    There is really something wrong with that picture.

    A troll is someone who secretly supports the WT agenda at all costs. They have frequently in the past as now come on the boards to give misinformation and misdirect the focus of valid and legitimate issues that show error in the organization. When someone or a collective group together challenge minor details while overlooking the major proof at hand, they reveal themselves.
    For those of you who wish to defend wt policy on child molestation you make yourself an enemy of anyone associated with silentlambs. It is that simple. The fight for what is right will not be diluted by misinformation and people with misplaced sympathies. IF you do not like that position then I suggest you either make clearly known your support of those who hurt children or stay away from this topic.



    23,720 JW child molesters on file.
    What kind of time frame are we looking at? Is this a file that contains all reported cases over the past twenty years?
    Cases pending further investigation?
    Actual Charges filed?
    There is a lot left un said.
    “They have frequently in the past as now come on the boards to give misinformation and misdirect the focus of valid and legitimate issues that show error in the organization.”

    ????? No misinformation in any questions.

    “When someone or a collective group together challenge minor details while overlooking the major proof at hand, they reveal themselves.”

    ????? challenge minor details No challenge in any questions.

    “The fight for what is right will not be diluted by misinformation”

    ????? Exactly WHAT misinformation would that be?????

    “IF you do not like that position then I suggest you either make clearly known your support of those who hurt children or stay away from this topic”

    I have corresponded with Bill in the past and he has since made it clear to me by his actions that unless I would be willing to post my story on his web sight he couldn’t care less about my welfare.

    Unless I will HELP HIM….HIM, not victims, but HIM I am his enemy.
    Well fine then so be it.

    My pain and my children’s pain is not for sale. And it certainly is not a gift for anyone.

    Thank you Bill for your compassion.

  • Naeblis

    Hmm. Where's anewperson in all of this. Hmm. I wonder....

  • Pathofthorns

    I am very aware of how the WT machine works and I have no loyalties or sympathy for them. I know a big difference often exists in stated policy and how incompetent elders cling to old-school mentalities. The Society's preference that victims not go to the police and their dislike for 'worldly counsellors' and therapies is no secret.

    That having been said, the official policy of the Society is that individuals will not be discouraged from going to the police or from seeking therapy from professionals. Individuals are free to do so if they desire. But from the way everyone acts around here, you would think that is not presently the case.

    What I am saying is, as inadequate as past policies were, there is little more the WT can do in the present to protect children from a policy point of view. IMO the strongest defence in the protection of children remains the parents.

    But you know, all of this talk about how horrible their child abuse policies are and how they need to be changed ignores the bigger picture that even if Silentlambs got its way, all JWs are still slaves and victims.

    All of this talk is basically endeavoring to give JW victims padded shackels when what they really need is a pair of bolt cutters to be set free from this religion. And who of us really believes Bill Bowen will return to being an active JW if the Society made all of the changes he is seeking? Bill hates the WT as much as all of us here and any changes the WT makes will never be enough because he knows they are wrong.

    Hate for the WT has sidetracked this whole issue into one that has taken the focus off the victims and merely turned them into a statistic and a pawn in the game of bringing down the WT. And the extreme emotion involved has caused many to stop thinking rationally.

    Ultimately Silentlambs has to confront the Society in the legal arena and go toe to toe with the Society over their policies. If he believes he can prove that these policies left the Society criminally responsible for acts of molestation or criminally negligent, then I wish him success.

    As for victims, I hope they have realistic expectations when they do go to the authorities, and if someone is not a convicted molester, I hope they can appreciate why the congregation must act the way they do, even though it might seem unfair.

    I have merely endeavoured to restore some balance to an issue that has become so one sided that anyone endeavoring to question anything or encourage caution and reason is labelled an enemy of abuse victims or showing sympathy for molesters.

    I am not afraid to be called names or have accusations placed on me for doing what I have done here. I have become comfortable with that from having been a JW and an exJW. I also have found myself in good company on this thread with others who were courageous enough to ask the difficult questions.

    I can only say to Bill that his last response was disappointing.

    It was particularly disappointing because you not only attacked me, but also one of the people you claim to represent and disregarded her thoughts and feelings on the matter. Is no one worthy of a proper dignified response from you Bill?

    Plmkrzy has all the authority in the world to address this issue with the passion she has. And I am impressed with the objectivity she has shown and wouldn't insult her by saying she is too "sensitive over this issue". She has every right to be upset to see you act the way you have.

    When I see how you behaved in this thread I see little difference between you and the WT. You both treat people badly. And you both have no idea who your real enemy is. It is yourselves. You destroyed yourself in this thread.

    Now I'm not saying you are a bad person Bill, or that you don't care for these victims. But I am saying you have treated people rudely in this thread, and that's not called for. Whether I am right or I am wrong, that is not how to treat people. Sometimes it is advantageous to even treat your so-called "enemies" with respect and dignity. I think you need to take a break to do some thinking.

    Believe me, if for a second I believed there could be serious changes made to prevent these things from happening, or if I could push for change to make the pain any less, I wouldn't hessitate to do so.

    I just would like to see the focus placed back on helping these victims and less emphasis on "changing the Watchtower". These people have been hurt and "changing the Watchtower" is not helping the victims.


  • plmkrzy

    this is one of those regret later things

  • plmkrzy

    Enjoy it Bill My BEATEN and Battered Face on the internet!

    How DARE you or anyone accuse me of defending the animals who do shit like this.

  • Naeblis

    Mr. Lambs has definately lost a lot of credibility here. Judging by his behaviour here tonight, I'm not sure what to believe about him anymore.

  • Pathofthorns


    Although you are beaten and battered in that picture, your beauty and your strength shines through. You are the reality of what all of this is about and not just a hypothetical situation or just another number.

    Every victim deserves an extra measure of respect and dignity, and I hope the right thing is done to you by honoring you with an apology.

    I don't think there is any sort of 'magic pill' that will make the pain go away. It seems like something victims will carry with them through life. That 'magic pill' certainly is not Silentlambs or changing WT policy. And I don't think even seeing a molester behind bars, recieving a court settlement, or high priced therapists can really make the pain fully go away either.

    In the end, I think much depends upon yourselves. It is that inner strength that got you through those horrible times and it is that inner strength that will carry you through life. When all is said and done, it is this that drives you to get up and face another day.

    I know there are times when abuse victims feel very fragile and not so pretty. I hope that those close to you let you know you are appreciated and that when you feel down, that they will pick you up.

    I think this thread has served a useful purpose and has been quite revealing. At the same time, it may no longer be healthy for all who will read it or all who may participate in it. So I am carefully weighing out how it proceeds to see if is in the interests of those who were hurt to leave these matters until another time.



    I would recommend to you, that in addition apologizing for how you treated a victim, that you take some time to review the objectives of Silentlambs. Especially, in view of the fact that the 02-02 BOE letter states plainly what appears to have been one of your primary objectives, it would be good to review Silentlambs' future endeavours in the interests of determining where your efforts would have the most impact protecting children and helping victims.

    The Silentlambs website is good in that it reveals that there are many who have been victims of sexual and physical abuse in the WT. More effort needs to be spent on informing victims of their right to go to the authorities and seek help for the crimes that have been committed against them. I don't believe the WT has done everything they could in this regard.

    Victims need to appreciate the need for EVIDENCE in a court of law, and that one person coming forward with an accusation is not always enough to get a conviction. Victims need to appreciate that when neither the courts nor the congregation can PROVE someone committed this crime, that there is little more that can be done until further evidence is revealed. Victims must be helped to understand why it works this way and why they cannot "warn" others arbitrarily when someone has not been convicted.

    When Witnesses can be helped to appreciate there are men that could do their children harm within the organization, they will be less inclined to trust someone just because "he is a brother". Witness parents will hopefully take more precautions in the interest of protecting their children.

    Bill, your hate for the WT should be an entirely separate issue altogether. The charade has becoming increasingly transparent for anyone who wants to believe Bill Bowen is only concerned about the Society's policies on child abuse and nothing else.

    The Society has so many things wrong with it, I don't even know where to start. All I know is the best thing for anyone to do is to get the hell out and get on with their life. But child abuse and hate for the WT are primarily 2 separate issues, and when we combine them it takes away from the cause, because hate for the WT seems to overshadow the victims and is a distraction that prevents them getting the help they need. Changing WT policy does nothing to help those who are victims.

    If you made your site less "anti-WT" you would probably help more who are active JWs. As it is now, what loyal JW would read it in good conscience? I think if your real concern is children, at least you might consider these things.

    I find the abscence of many of your 'high profile poster' friends in this thread interesting. Sometimes your friends are not always the ones telling you what you want to hear. And sometimes you can forget that the best place for your "enemies" is on your side.


  • dedalus

    I have to add my voice to the chorus who is disappointed in Bill. His behavior in the thread reeks of everything that I hate about the Organization: its arrogance, its authoritarianism, its skirting of legitimate questions, its way of lashing out at those who have supported it.

    As mentioned in the first post on this thread further information is given at the sl website. Most of the questions posed are answered in the explanation. For those of you to lazy to click a link you will just have to stay in suspense.
    Bill, all your website said is that you were contacted by some people with this information. The question of whether you can be sure this information is reliable or not is a good question. But, instead of acknowledging the question, you lash out.

    For those of you who wish to ignore the collective mountain of evidence and say you need more proof, I would suggest your immediate return to the organization and full time service. The governing body needs more like you.

    The 23,720 is real whether some of you like it or not.

    It's real because ... you say it is? Some random e-mails consitute a "mountain of evidence" in favor of this figure, 23,720? And, after the prince you've been in this thread, we should just believe you? Give me a break. The fact that people on this board, many of whom have been abused or know someone who has, are curious about the legitimacy of this figure, means they don't want to put their trust blindly in someone. It means that they want to be sure that what they say is true. But I guess it's easier for you call them trolls than answer their questions. (Sort of like when the Organization calls people apostates instead of answering their questions.)

    For those of you who wish to criticize, I would ask you the questions, what have you done in the interest of changing wt policy and protecting children? What sacrifice have you made in the interest of helping people come to closure with the devastating effects of child molestation? How many victims have you actually talked to, consoled and tried to help? How many molesters have been turned into the police as a result of your efforts?
    Your arrogance here is disgusting. First of all, who are you to call into question what others have done? Maybe we should all put up websites and post messages trumpeting our accomplishments! But surely, that would only prove that no one has done as much as Bill! [8>]

    Second, even if you have done a lot of good, that doesn't have anything to do with the questions you've been asked. Just because you've helped people before doesn't mean you get to be an asshole now. Being right then doesn't make you right now. Get it?

    My suggestion to you is that you shut your mouth. I'm personally getting sick of reading all of your anonymous sources touted about as if they were reliable, and all of the Dateline episode updates. And I'm sick of the condescending lecture, "It takes time for TV shows to do things blah blah blah." If it happens, it'll happen. Meanwhile, it's no fun watching you disintigrate into a raving megalomaniac.


  • plmkrzy

    I hesitated to reply again because I do not want to bring this thread to the top so it's 3 in the morning, chat is empty so it should be far enough down by the time more people log on.
    I wanted to say thank you to all of you who sent e-mail to me. That was incredibly kind and thoughtful. You all know who you are.
    I will mention though that I have also been speeking with bill since my explosion and I am glad that we are both being very civil and talking like two adults and not bickering.
    I hope something good has come out of this.

    Thanks again to all of you who have tried to keep an open mind and stay grounded. I am going back to the drawing board a g a i n.

    No matter how thin you slice it there are always two sides

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