Call it theocratic warefare...an attempt to decieve for the benefit of the deciever. The deception lay in the portrayal of God's nature and intent; something akin to a drug pusher encouraging a teenager to use heroin with the promise of bliss.
But Satan DIDNT lie!???
by mrbunyrabit 52 Replies latest watchtower bible
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jookbeard
mP thats a excellent point about the angles guarding with swords , I'd never thought about that before
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AndDontCallMeShirley
Comatose said: Seraphim - Jesus referenced the flood as I have had pointed out to me many times in the past. He didnt make note of it being a parable or story, but spoke of it as a warning and a true event. So I don't think the argument that it is all parable is able to stand.
You make an excellent point Comatose, and this is what I stated in my posts. I stated I wasn't promoting the view that these accounts are literal- I was just highlighting what's in print and accepted by most churches. Seraphim seems to have missed that point and instead decided to get bogged down in non-issues and minutiae.
Comatose:
The whole tree of life thing is a mess. Angels guarding the way with swords before there even swords invented. Why did God let Cain kill Abel? I mean he carried on a conversation with him. He protected him after it. It doesn't make sense.
mP:
If you look at the etymology of Cain in Hebrew and understand the "mark" you will appreciate the story. Basically Cain means blacksmith.
Comatose made a valid observation here. Considering that iron did not make its appearance in human history until well after the Bible's claimed Flood event, then it is beyond question that iron swords could not have existed in the Garden of Eden. Unless we are to believe that so early in human history, when only four people existed, we are to believe Cain developed the science of metallurgy and had a full-blown, one-man steel mill operating while he was also farming. Since blacksmithing wasn't invented yet, it makes it painfully obvious that the Eden account was written much later in history- when metal working already existed.
mP- you also raise a really interesting point. Supposedly, Abel had god's blessing, Cain did not. However, who got murdered (while god watched)? Abel. Who enjoyed God's blessing? Cain. Such is the nature of the Bible's portrayal of god- the righteous suffer while the wicked get to do whatever the hell they want to do-all with god's approval, either actively or by apathetic disconnection.
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Comatose
AND... Why was Abel sacrificing poor little lambs? I mean it was just a few years after the first children on earth were born. Did God tell Adam to kill animals for him? Why wouldn't that be recorded in the bible? Why would the second and third men to live think they needed to build alters and make sacrifices? There could be no symbolism of a sacrifice depicting the Messiah. They wouldn't have had that written or foretold yet. No reason makes sense.
"we will have to wait till the new order and ask them ourselves..."
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Phizzy
Just a slight quibble here, I think we could, just possibly be making the same mistake as bible literalists almost. That is reading the Bible with a 21st century eye.
By the first century the Jews had developed a way of using Bible stories to relate to there present experience, to give them faith and hope and direction. They did not necessarily view them as literal, historic stories.
So when Jesus spoke of the "days of Noah" it is possible he was saying something similar to when we may say something like "when Gulliver travelled" .
What we do you think ?
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WTWizard
Fact is, it was Satan that tried liberating us from tyranny from joke-hova. Had Adam obeyed, he would have rejected freedom. And who would want to do that? And, unless joke-hova threw its temper tantrum, no one would have died from this.
And no, Jesus doesn't save anyone. That whole account was invented by joke-hova as a tool to re-enslave us. Don't believe me? Just research most of the Christian religions at their deeper levels. Going to Beth Hell--compare the rules there with the rules of communism. (Yup, Marxist Communism--the same crap that trashed Russia.) Compare the Law of St Benedict with communism. This law is the ultimate from the cat lick church, and monks and nuns are supposed to obey it. Check several other religions' missionary programs--they are usually fairly stingy with missionaries' needs. I checked a group called the Christian Alliance. That group was a little more generous, but the rules are quite strict. Also, I checked some of the conditions missionaries from the Anglican church face--eerily reminiscent of communism. Most of them are similar.
Instead of joke-hova being a god of truth and Satan the Father of the lie, it should be joke-hova wants us enslaved at all costs, and Satan is willing to do whatever it takes to liberate us.
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Comatose
Jesus drew a comparison between Noah's days and a coming destruction. That comparison fails unless he was asserting the flood happened. So I don't think we can in all honesty make a excuse for what he really meant. According to the bible Jesus believed the flood of Noah's day. The bible is inspired word for word by god. It is literal. Everything in it happened just as written. Jesus said the flood happened. Somewhere in those last sentences are a number of issues for an open minded person.
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AndDontCallMeShirley
"They did not necessarily view them as literal, historic stories."
"By the first century the Jews had developed a way of using Bible stories to relate to there present experience, to give them faith and hope and direction. They did not necessarily view them as literal, historic stories."
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What in the Bible narrative indicates that any of the Bible writers viewed these events as allegories, fables, or fictional life lessons that were not meant to be taken literally as history?
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Terry
For the record, don't Mormons assert Satan was telling the truth?
The assert that Adam HAD to eat the fruit, in fact.
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ballistic
I find it interesting trying to analyse the story from the point of view of what the story teller was trying to explain to us,
and what needed explaining. The fact that our first parents must have existed, being it was in pre-history. There is no record of it.
It explains how we came to be. It explains awakening to a moral being which is different to all the animals and how that moral being came to be.
It seems interesting that they make it man's choice, an act of disobiedience to accomplish these great things. Why? One possibility I have thought of is that life is tough. Man struggled to grow food and live in toil, birth pains etc, and the story explains this is because WE turned away from god to go it alone. We chose our way and that is why life is so tough.
Just my ramblings.