How many former Jehovah's Witnesses bury their head in the sand when it comes to reasoning about the NGO "conspiracy"?

by Change Name 130 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • suavojr
  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Change Name: It is pretty black and white. It is these rumormongers and instigators that mislead their readers into believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses did something wrong when they became an NGO/DPI to gather information.

    Hyperbole. Surely not everyone who disagrees wiith you is a rumormonger or an instigator.

    To clarify, any non-profit organization is automatically an NGO by definition. What the Watchtower Society did is sign an association agreement with the United Nations. This came with certain commitments which has been detailed elsewhere.

    Jehovah's Witnesses can decide for themselves if it is OK to associate with the United Nations.

  • Jpaw36
    Jpaw36

    Change Name -

    You remind me of FOX NEWS "Fair and Balanced"..... just because the WTS has a cohearent response to an accusation it does not mean they are telling the truth! The Bush Admistraton had plenty of well worded factually accurate responses to its critics but they were still lying. WTS used the DPI membership to gain an advantage in establishing themselves in the old Soviet Block. My JW Grandmother worked as a seamstress at a casino in the mid sixties supporting a disabled husband and 4 kids when the WTS decided to impose a no tolerence policy on working in gambling establishments. Two Elders came to visit her the next evening(after it was announced at the KH) and told her she needed to quit that night or be disfellowshipped. She told them she need to give two weeks notice first. They told her that was unacceptable.She did not quit that night. She was disfellowshipped.

    The WTS cannot justify any association what-so-ever with the UN under any terms at all. Using the UN John would be out of the question according to their own propaganda.

    They have condemed the UN over and over and over again.

    PAW

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos
    I have the WT CD and read the first few articles from the Awakes. Nothing wrong with what they have said. Did they build up the UN as the only hope for mankind.

    It's possible that you are lacking the historical context to appreciate what's strange about the phrasing of these articles. The ones that I looked up basically made two statements: "1. The UN is sincerely attempting to help with this or that world situation. 2. It's unlikely they can succeed, but God can, and let us show you some scriptures to that effect (followed by Bible-oriented article)." It's all very... level-headed and... reasonable.... Which is not how the Society used to refer to "the wild beast".

    I'll freely admit that this is a conspiracy theory, but the suspicion is that the Society used the lead-ins talking about the UN's mission as a way to fulfill a requirement to promote the mission of the UN. They then, of course, would segue into a Bible topic to justify bringing up the UN and to satisfy JW readers. So, in answer to your question: No, they did not build up the UN as the only hope for mankind. Obviously if they had, the organization would have collapsed by now as Witnesses fled in shock, assuming that apostates had taken over the Writing Department.

    So, no, they wouldn't do that, they couldn't do that if they wanted to, and I doubt they want to. The NGO situation is simply a case of 'something being rotten in the state of Denmark', but we don't know what. It's impossible to know exactly what they were thinking when they signed up, however as you acknowledged, the Society is also making use of at least one sub-group at the UN in order to further their preaching work and alleviate persecution. If you yourself were more than a "Jack JW", you would know just how hostile the Society used to be in their literature towards the UN and the League before it, and would be bothered by the sudden reasonableness in their discussion of, and cooperation with, the Beast.

    You said you have the WT Library CD-ROM, right? It took me two minutes to find this representative quote about the UN from the "old-school" literature (WT Mar. 1, 1959):

    30 Likewise in this time of the end, when Jehovah’s witnesses are particularly warning Christendom concerning the coming of God’s executional forces at Armageddon. Now her rulers, backed by her priests and prophets, take refuge, not in Jehovah’s provided resting place and place of ease, but in worldly alliances. First, Christendom proposed and took refuge in the League of Nations, from 1919 down to 1939. Then, from 1945 till now, she has concealed herself behind the world-peace-and-security organization, the United Nations. Heedless of Jehovah’s witnesses, Christendom in effect says:

    31 ‘You witnesses, with your message of the day of vengeance of your God Jehovah, can’t scare us. The Death and Sheol that you predict for us won’t touch us or harm us. We have got on good terms with Death so it will not touch us by those executional forces of your Jehovah God. We’ll survive and you won’t. We have come to a good understanding with Sheol, which you witnesses say is the common grave. We have a vision with it; we see alike as to the outcome of matters. Sheol will not open its mouth or enlarge itself to receive us, and you witnesses of Jehovah will never bury our bones after what you call Armageddon. Ha, ha! We once made our refuge the League of Nations and the Court of International Justice. Since World War II we have concealed ourselves behind the United Nations, its security forces, its Committee for Disarmament, its International Court of Justice, and all the defensive alliances and pacts that have been formed within the framework of the United Nations. So those forces of destruction about which you witnesses of Jehovah are doing such sensational preaching will never reach us or sweep us into Death and Sheol. They will be swept back, and our Egyptian refuge and place of concealment will hold out. They are our last and only hope, but they will not fail us. They will prove true to us, and you witnesses will prove to be calamity howlers, false prophets such as we have all along said that you were.’

    [...]

    33 We witnesses also quote Psalm 33:17-19: “The horse [of Egypt for warfare] is a deception for salvation, and by the abundance of its vital energy it does not afford escape. Look! the eye of Jehovah is toward those fearing him, to those waiting for his loving-kindness, to deliver their soul from death itself, and to preserve them alive in famine.” Today Christendom has a symbolic “image of the wild beast.” Each member of the United Nations has joined in setting it up or in maintaining it for worship as an idol image for worship by the worldly nations. Concerning it we quote Jeremiah (10:14, 15): “His molten image is a falsehood, and there is no spirit in them. They are vanity, a work of mockery. In the time of their being given attention they will perish.” Hence we witnesses say: The war horses of antitypical Egypt will not avail Christendom. The Devil-inspired, man-made images symbolizing peace and security now worshiped by the nations will prove to be no gods. The alliance of Christendom’s religions with this political world is an unclean, ungodly deception. As a refuge and place of concealment the League of Nations proved to be a lie, even without the coming of the battle of Armageddon. Not less so now, when the actual “war of the great day of God the Almighty” is impending, the United Nations is a lie and a falsehood! Jehovah says so through his Word.

    Does this sound like the same organization that would use the UN as a means to gain entry into opposing territories and protect its brothers from persecution, good motives aside? What happened to fleeing from Babylon the Great so we don't share in her sins? (Yes, I know Babylon is Christendom; but Babylon is "sitting on" the very organization the Society is a member of!).

    2 hours is too long to be on this computer

    With all due respect to your life and your family commitments, you should be willing to spend lengthy amounts of time researching and then reflecting on these sorts of issues. When I began learning TTATT, I read late into the night, using a Bible and the WT Library to confirm what I was being told about the Watchtower's teachings and past teachings (becoming sleep-deprived didn't help my job performance, but I just had to know the truth and didn't hesitate to suffer a little personally in order to answer my burning questions).

    I admit that many of the responses you are getting are unhelpful and immature; sadly, the posters seem unaware that there are people lurking on this thread who honestly want answers, and they can only be turned off by smart-ass-ery. That being said, you are at risk of letting other peoples' alleged motives put you off from a personal road to enlightenment. It's easy to challenge other people to do your work for you and then reject their side of the issue when they mock you instead of giving answers, but it's also intellectually dishonest and lazy. I'm not calling you dishonest and lazy (seriously, I'm not), but when you focus more on the negative responses you've gotten and on the attitude of the forum, you make it sound like you're leaning in that direction.

    Hi again Apognophos - Read my message to Finkelstein. I think reactions are telling of the person I am talking to.

    Frankly, comments like this make me wonder why you're even here, as you seem more concerned with other peoples' motives than in having a discussion. If you wanted a level-headed debate you shouldn't have started the thread with inflammatory or accusatory language. Why not just "disconnect" from forums like this one and do your own research and come to your own conclusions? The Internet is full of hot air that isn't educational or edifying. That being said, there are ones here that you can learn a lot from if you approach them with some humility.

    P.S.: I will just reiterate that there are, in my opinion, better examples of hypocrisy and troubling secrets in the history of the Watchtower than the NGO situation, since it's so hard to know the facts in this case. I don't want to get off-topic by naming other issues here, however. If you're interested in hearing about them, please PM me or start a thread asking what people's single biggest objection to WT teaching is.

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    You guys are doing a great services to mankind. How grateful Iam to be an apostate! Its the most befitting designation one can have. We are certainly ways smarter than the Watchtower.

    Scott77

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    Change Name,

    I haven’t read every conversation, but I happened to catch what was saying about disfellowshipping. There are many myths I had always heard about disfellowshipping…that people were unrepentant and were going to continue in their course, or that it wasn’t the action, it was the person’s attitude.

    Then one day, I, a repentant person came forward about my own actions I had done many months previous, seeking spiritual help, faced a backroom judicial committee, and was disfellowshipped and shunned by all my friends and family. My attitude was that of a repentant sinner seeking help. Eventually, I got reinstated after a long, arduous year and a half. My once best friends now held me at arm’s length, even though I had returned. This process helped me in seeing the “truth about the truth”. It was not Christianity 101.

    According to your accounting, you are an unbaptized “bible study”. You’ve never faced a judicial committee, which even at your request, you cannot have outside witnesses to, nor recordings, nor any record that can be made public as to what went on in that back room. It’s often then a case of the elder’s word against the person who was tried. The elders are the judge, jury, and prosecution. There is no defense attorney. Nobody is allowed to look at the elder’s manual and letters to the body of elders and training that goes on at the elder’s school.

    Indeed, unless you were an elder sitting in on a judicial committee or ever had to face a judicial committee, you cannot have the freedom in speech in this that many of us have.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    I just wanted to point out that Change Name doesn't appear to have been involved with the JWS for very long, so knowing

    what the WTS. said in some their literature decades ago he might be a bit vague about.

    Read his first post or first thread to understand where he's at.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos
    I just wanted to point out that Change Name doesn't appear to have been involved with the JWS for very long

    Oops, my bad. I had read one of his posts that indicated he had become inactive and I thought that this was after a number of years being a Witness. He also had a CD-ROM, which is only given out to publishers or baptized publishers AFAIK. I didn't realize he was just a Bible study.

    Then I retract my statements, Change Name, about how you should know what the Society used to say. Suffice to say that you will see lots of similar rhetoric about the UN if you look back in the publications. For those of us with a history as a Witness, this thinking was deeply ingrained into us, so as soon as we read those articles talking lightly about the UN as if they were just some charitable organization, we immediately noticed the tone was very different. When I looked up the '90s articles on my CD-ROM, I remembered the confusion I felt when I first read some of them and thought, "Why aren't they pointing out how the UN is the wild beast? Why are they giving them so much credit?" In some cases, the article that follows the lead-in does touch on the UN being the wild beast, but they kept that little "tidbit" of prophetic interpretation out of the initial article, which is what I find so fishy.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    I think if I'm not mistaken the WTS. came out in a recent article in either the WT. or AW. that the UN wasn't that bad of a organization.

    I wish I've kept some of these articles now to use as a reference.

    And of course there was no mentioning of the Wild Beast labeling in that article.

  • Dismissing servant
    Dismissing servant

    " I am sure that they may have became the NGO/DPI to help battle countries who refuse to give them the right to preach their message (without jail time) about the kingdom of God and to be recognized as a religion. Again, nothing wrong with that if it helps increase their preaching activities. "

    Wow, Change Name! I did not observe this until now! So, now it hasn't to do with morals and honesty ...but to increase their preaching activities. That's OK, but, in that case, why didn't they tell their own rank and file about this? "Hey brothers an sisters, now, as an accepted NGO we now get protection and support from the UN! So please, do not expose our theological wiewpoint of the UN as we now get protection from the beast itself."

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