Yup, pretty slick, Chaserious. They continue to deride an ambiguous but identifiable group - apostates - but don't put on the label even at disfellowshipping. But the congregation knows.
DFing....Human Rights Violation and DEFAMATION of character?
by Terry 75 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jgnat
sabastious, I am very respectful of the work of Steve Hassan, and I do believe the WTS controls its members through various mind tricks (cognitive dissonance, circular reasoning, phobias). However, the mind "control" is imperfect. There are potential "converts" who will see through the manipulation and never join. There are born-in children who will never buy in. Members can experience a rude shock or an awakening and leave.
Believing one will "die" if one leaves is imaginary, even if it is "mind controlled".
Our courts systems are built on the foundation of free will. If we were not free, we would need a whole lot more laws to control our behavior and to prevent us from making stupid mistakes (joining pyramid schemes, starting a whackadoo religion).
It would take much more than a "simple investigation" to prove the WTS dangerous. The russians failed to do so. I am simply explaining how the judicial system views religions. They simply do not care to involve themselves in the internal belief systems.
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jgnat
They are impinging upon the right to assembly and freedom of association. - sab
How? This board goes on unfettered. There's http://exjw.meetup.com/
Do you mean members from speaking to ex-members? There's nothing stopping the disfellowshipped from engaging with members.
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frankiespeakin
Terry,
I'm thinking a good lawyer could make a good case and win in a lawsuit against this corporation.
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sabastious
sabastious, I am very respectful of the work of Steve Hassan, and I do believe the WTS controls its members through various mind tricks (cognitive dissonance, circular reasoning, phobias). However, the mind "control" is imperfect. There are potential "converts" who will see through the manipulation and never join. There are born-in children who will never buy in. Members can experience a rude shock or an awakening and leave.
Mind control works on anybody if applied correctly and in the right circumstance. The only reason why WT mind control fails is because they are working with a system that involves the masses. If you take a single person and put them into a cell you can mind control them no matter how strong their will is. You only need to find the right combination of tactics and methods. Everybody has psychology that can be used against them, the trick is finding what works. When dealing with the masses you are going to have many slip by because the method isn't specifically tailored to their weaknesses, but to what works with the masses.
Believing one will "die" if one leaves is imaginary, even if it is "mind controlled".
It's not imaginary within the mind of the subject. It's as real as anything else and because it's such a fearful idea, it's actually MORE real than most everything else.
It would take much more than a "simple investigation" to prove the WTS dangerous. The russians failed to do so. I am simply explaining how the judicial system views religions. They simply do not care to involve themselves in the internal belief systems.
All you'd have to do is put few government agents through their system and report back. It wouldn't be hard at all. The Russians lost the cold war and freely elect dictators, they don't know what they are doing.
-Sab
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sabastious
Do you mean members from speaking to ex-members? There's nothing stopping the disfellowshipped from engaging with members.
............................................................................................... mind control!
-Sab
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DATA-DOG
Terry, great subject! I think the key would be finding a lawyer or judge who cares enough to be educated about TTATT. If they are not a religious person, and think God is silly, or have never experienced anything we are talking about, then it won't be that big of a deal. How can they get it? If you have not experienced something then no words will suffice. If you have then no words are needed.
Perhaps we don't even need to go that far? What about an official letter from a Lawyer saying that they will sue the individual Elders involved in your JC? You can take someone to court for anything. So perhaps suing the individual Elders for defamation of character is the way to go. What would the WTBTS legal team say to that? Have any of our resident Elders ever been threatened? Can you perhaps call the WTBTS and ask about this?
The way things are going, I can't see the Society protecting the Elders from being sued. The Society only cares about their money. I bet they would throw the Elders under the bus.
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Finkelstein
I follow your thinking Terry but since the JWS/WTS try to model itself from the social behavior of the ancient Hebrews and badly I might add,
and given that religions in America have almost total free will to how they operate and conduct themselves.
It should be clearly recognized that any social platform of human rights was not in appearance in the bronze age of the middle east.
Even back then there were situations that if a person were to speak against the High Priests and their activities, these ones
could be captured and killed under the power and control which they had within that civilization.
Of course the WTS. has modeled its DFing policy vicariously from bible scripture that states identified evil ones should not be
associated with not even to sit and eat a meal with etc.
Add there was no mention of a public announcing in front of a congregated group of people that one particular person should be openly
identified and publicly shunned by the assembled people even by that person's family. !!!!!!
Going beyond what is written is obvious here.
It should also be realized that there are other high controlling religious cults that too cast objectionable opposers to the
structure of the sect out and cast them out away from their families and so forth.
These religious leaders simple don't care about that persons feelings and well being or their innate human rights, they are simply trying
to maintain their own power and control of which they have acquired and perhaps created toward themselves.
In that same fashion the JWS have created its own individual DFing policy toward those they deem dangerous not only to the rest
of the congregation but toward their own established power and control.
One thing I brought out awhile back on another thread topic is that I think religions (WTS.) that establish a shunning policy directly upon people
who decide themselves to leave a specific church to go to another of their own particular choosing, should be seen as an act of religious
prejudice and hatred toward religious expression and choice.
Freedom of religion toward all individuals should be expressively just that and it should not be impeded upon by one religious organization upon
any individual making that individual choice.
The actions that the WTS. makes onto people (DFing/shunning) who decide to leave, to perhaps take on a different faith is somewhat
illegal, in that it not only incites prejudice and hatred to another religious teaching/faith but it also trashs that person's own personal freedom of choice.
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jgnat
mind control...a system that involves the masses - sab
Hence, imperfect. Lots of people slip through the cracks.
You realize that if a person is convinced they will "die" if they leave and it is all in their mind, it's imaginary?
All you'd have to do is put few government agents through their system and report back. - sab
You mean like Waco? Sure, like that will work. I am glad we have a government that does not infiltrate religions looking for reasons to shut them down.
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Terry
Here is a little exercise I propose for you to think about and solve.
An Orthodox Jewish (splinter sect) congregation discovers that a member has committed adultry. Strictly interpreting the penalty as death by stoning they take
the offending party or parties to the edge of the city and the congregation stones them to death.
None of us has any doubt this would not be legal EVEN THOUGH it is strictly based on actual scriptural precedent and is a RELIGIOUS MATTER.
Okay. I would like for you to EXPLAIN why this is not legally permitted in this instance. (Out loud to yourself.......I'll wait..........)
Okay, fine.
Now, let's crawl up the slippery slope--shall we?
What if, instead of stoning the adulterers to death the congregation staged a "mock" execution without the offender knowing they weren't REALLY going to die? Would THIS action be legal?
Would the fear generated amount to torture perhaps?
(I'll wait while you explain your answer aloud to yourself...........)
Now, if you will, explain the distinction IN THE MIND OF THE ACCUSED between thinking you are going to die and thinking your are going to die.
(I'll wait while you explain the distinction and the difference.)
Are you with me so far? Fine.
Jehovah's Witnesses are in the second category. They actually believe they are going to die at Armageddon if they are Disfellowshipped AND very soon because....wait for it........wait for it.......THE END IS NEAR.
See my point or not?
The terror of the experience is a form of abuse against the victim for many psychological reasons I don't have to enumerate.
The younger a sister or brother is the more susceptible to devastation DFing may be ESPECIALLY when they have DONE NO WRONG.
In certain fraternities where mock executions have been staged as hazing incidents there have been pledges who died of terror and a heart attack because the belief generated was so shattering.
The more devout you are and the more Absolute your belief in the certainty of destruction by Jehovah at Armageddon the more terror you experience at the power of DFing. It is an instrument of torture and coercion.