The Stone the Builders Rejected

by sabastious 312 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • dazed but not confused
    dazed but not confused

    google is your friend. I had to look it up last week too. She likes to use big words, must make her feel better.

    Doulos may refer to:

    • In ancient Greece, a slave (δο?λος)
    • Biblically it is commonly translated as bond-servant or servant, but literally the word meant slave in various nuances.
  • EntirelyPossible

    There are no slaves on this thread.

  • cofty

    Some christians like to prevaricate and pretend it means something less offensive like "bond-servant" but that is nonsense.

    The only New Testament translation that always translates doulos slave is the Goodspeed translation. From 1923 to 1937, E.J. Goodspeed was a professor of Greek at the University of Chicago. He is a storied Greek genius, pioneer in lexicography of the Greek language. And you probably are familiar with Goodspeed translation though it’s a little bit obscure. He has the integrity to stick with the meaning of doulos everywhere it appears in the New Testament. There is a multi-volume set of lexicography about that long on my shelf called Kittel, have you heard of it? K-i-t-t-e-l, it is the last word, the consummate word, more than you ever need to know or care to know about every Greek word. Every single Greek word has an article and the articles go on for page and page after page, after page, after page to fill up that much space just dealing with the Greek words in the New Testament.

    In the article on doulos, this is what it says in Kittel, “There is no need to trace the history of this word, there is no need to discuss the meaning of this word, it has never meant anything in any usage but slave.”more...

  • AGuest

    Okay, dear Sab (again, peace to you!). Perhaps you will consider the following as to the wild beast and its image. To start, we need to determine what the wild beast is, which we can do by looking at the verses that refer to it:

    "And I saw a beast coming out of the sea . It had ten horns and seven heads , with ten crowns on its horns , and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast hispower and his throne and great authority. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed . The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast . People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast , and they also worshiped the beast and asked , “ Who is like the beast ? Who can wage war against it ?” Revelation 13:1-4

    1. The beast comes "out of the sea," meaning it comes out of the people... the masses... of the earth. Revelation 17:15

    2. Its ten horns are ten “kings”. Daniel 7:24; Revelation 17:12

    3. The seven heads, though, are seven “mountains” on which sit Babylon the Great. And each head has on it a “blasphemous” name. We can know what these “mountains” are, by understanding just what the ONE head that is described is.

    a. That head is described as having a “fatal” wound, but the wound was healed. That, dear one... is Israel... and her system of worship. It received a blow when it was first captured by Babylon and the temple partially destroyed. But it was “healed” when Israel was allowed to return and rebuild. She received another blow, when Rome utterly destroyed the temple. BUT... she will be healed again. Isaiah 30:36; Jeremiah 8:22; 14:19; 15:18; 30:12-18; 33:6

    b. Like the others, this head is a “mountain” in that she is “Zion”, God’s own “holy mountain.” Again, she is Israel... and her system of worship. Psalm 102:13, 16; Isaiah 31:4; Jeremiah 30:17; Zechariah 8:3; Hebrews 12:22

    c. And Israel and its system of worship blasphemed [against] God.

    If Israel and its system of worship is ONE head... then who or what are the others? The others are six similar systems of worship... “mountains”... that also come out of the sea (of people) with beast and its ten horns. THIS, dear one, the wild beast that comes out of the “sea”... is the world system, that comes out of the people and includes corrupt systems of governments (ten kings)... and corrupt systems of worship (seven blasphemous heads). These make up ONE entity thatreceives it authority, power, and throne (dominion) from the dragon. And the WHOLE world worships and follows this beast... because they believe it to be all powerful... that no one can touch it, even wage war with it. And it is because of this beast that such corrupt governments... and religion... exist... and are revered by “the whole world.”

    This beast is not a literal entity. Rather, it is a systemic way of THINKING... and so a “generalconsensus”... of the masses... that human government and human religion are NECESSARY for man’s well-being. That we NEED such and those who oppose such are, well, anarchists - anti-government and anti-religion... and thus, anti-human. Against mankind. However, the truth is that this “beast” is against mankind – it is its human governments and human systems of worship that have wreaked havoc against and upon mankind. It purpose? To keep man from turning to a non-human government and system of worship; one that is of SPIRIT and TRUTH, verses of flesh and deceit.

    And so...

    “The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth willworship the beast all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.” Revelation 13:5-9

    Unfortunately, I cannot share with you at this time what these verses mean, at least, not on this board but know that is it with regard to one of the “mountainous” heads. That head “speaks”, as it were, as the verse above state... and for a period of 42 months (Revelation 11:2-4).

    Now, let’s look at the NEXT beast:

    “Then I saw another beast which rose out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed.” Revelation 13:11, 12

    While appears from the wording that this beast makes the earth/its inhabitants worship the first beast, the TRUTH is that it worships the HEAD of the first beast “whose mortal wound was healed.” So, not the ENTIRE first beast is worshipped but only one of its heads: the head that is Israel and its system of worship. But, no, this is not Judaism, dear one, no.

    THIS beast has “two horns”... LIKE lamb. They are not two horns OF a lamb, though. A lamb is a pretty docile animal, one of the most docile, actually. However, this beast SPEAKS... like a dragon. So, on the one hand it APPEARS, by means of its horns... to be docile, meek. However, its mouth utters LIES... speech like a dragon. THIS beast, dear Sab... is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society... and its affiliates. Through its “two horns”... the Watchtower and Awake!... it comes OFF as... and so APPEARS to be... a lamb. Through these, its “horns” of STRENGTH... it “mildly” and “meekly” teaches, exhorts, “guides”, and leads in the manner of what seems to be “sheep-like”. That they claim it is the leadings of GOD... makes such as if from the Lamb of God himself! LIKE a “lamb.”

    But its VOICE... by means of the false teachings, false doctrines, propaganda, and claims of leadings by holy spirit... speaks LIES. LIKE... a “dragon.”

    “It works great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of men.” Revelation 13:13

    They do this through their manipulative and fear-mongering teachings, particular as to “Armageddon.” They don’t literally being such fire; rather, they use that event as a “great sign” to garner absolute fear in the eyes of all who BELIEVE their propaganda. Such that those who succumb literally cannot think for themselves due to this “great sign” – “YOU might/are going to die at Armageddon!” Revelation 16:14, 16; 20:9

    “and by the signs which it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast, it deceivesthose who dwell on earth, bidding them make an image for the beast which was wounded by the sword and yet lived...” Revelation 13:14

    So, we see HERE that this second beast didn’t just make an image to the first beast – it deceives OTHERS into making an image... and an image for the (part of) the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lives! So the IMAGE... is of only ONE head of the first beast, and the head that is the “mountain” that is... Israel and its system of worship.

    But... it was an IMAGE of that “head/mountain,” and so not the ACTUAL head/mountain. Thus, it couldn’t be Israel and its system of worship – it is an IMAGE of that.

    “and it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast so that the image of the beast should even speak, and to cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.” Revelation 13:15

    So, this image is given life... so that it can SPEAK... and cause some who would not worship IT... NOT the first beast, not the second beast, not the one head/mountain of the first beast... but the IMAGE itself to be worshipped. What could this second beast have caused OTHERS to make... that would be an IMAGE... of the head/mountain of the FIRST beast, the head/mountain that got wounded... but revived?

    What about the Israelite system of worship would have received a “death stroke” but then was revived... such that now an IMAGE could be made of it by those who “dwell... on the EARTH”... and cause “those who would not worship the image... to be slain???

    One thing, dear one... only one. ONE thing received a death stroke in that system... but was revived... ONE thing now has an “image” made by those who dwell on the EARTH (versus those who are enrolled in the heavens!)... and ONE thing cause the slay of those who will not worship it: THE LAW COVENANT... which received a “death-stroke” when it was nailed to the torture pole with my Lord... and which has been allowed to be “revived” so that it can do the following:

    “Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark , that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.” Revelation 13:16, 17

    By breathing life BACK into the Law Covenant, the IMAGE of the beast that received a death-stroke but was healed, this organization... which is OF THE EARTH (indeed, it calls itself “the visible representation of the Lord on earth”!... which is a revival of the temple at Jerusalem, the LAST true visible representation of JAH on earth!... has revived the IMAGE of that system... it’s LAW COVENANT... in order to put under compulsion/cause people from virtually EVERY walk... to bear IT’S mark. And without that "mark," no one can buy from... or sell what it receives from... this image.

    So, rather than teaching such ones about the NEW Covenant, which REPLACED it, these use the Law Covenant to evoke fear and so control those who follow it, so that they end up receiving it’s mark. The mark of the WTBTS. Which they do when they take their baptism vows to THAT organization... rather than to the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). They use the Law Covenant to lead these AWAY from Christ.

    By misleading these to breathe life BACK into the Law Covenant, these come back UNDER the Law Covenant. They return to being of the flesh... and thus, those who persecute those of the SPIRIT. Even... slaying those who belong to the NEW Covenant and so REFUSE to worship the “image”... that is the OLD Covenant. Because they adhere to a covenant that is with reference to the FLESH... they cannot tolerate those who adhere to a different law, one that is with reference to the SPIRIT.

    “This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six.” Revelation 13:17

    The reason that this beast’s number is 666... it because it LOOKS “perfect”... SOUNDS “perfect”... and TEACHES “perfection”... but... it is NOT perfect, nor are its words perfect, nor does it teach perfection.

    Because perfection... is love. Love that goes SO far... as to include one’s enemies (Matthew 5:43-48). And as good as this beast looks, with its two horns like a lamb... and as good as the image that it compels those of the earth to make and breath life into sounds... and as much as it calls itself the “truth” and teaches “perfection”... is it NOT perfect. Not by a stretch.

    I hope this helps, dear Sab, truly.

    Again, peace to you!

    YOUR servant and a doulos of Christ,


  • AGuest
    Some christians like to prevaricate and pretend it means something less offensive like "bond-servant" but that is nonsense.

    And some don't but choose to use it just as it's meant but only as to themselves, not as to anyone else. But, ah, well... always damned if you do... and damned if you don't.

    A doulos of Christ,

    SA, who changed it because apparently some have ears SO tender... and consciences SO weak... that they are offended that she chooses to call herself a "slave" and so can't bear the five letters that spell out that word and so she conceded to use a different word... which means the same thing... so sue her...

  • Larsinger58

    Wow....what a discussion!

  • irondork

    I don't suppose my question could derail this thread anymore than Cofty's announcement of his endowment with superior reason.

    AGuest: What are these “women”? They are the religious sects that are “born” of the fornication/adultery of those who WERE (or claimed to be) joined to God/Christ... with the “kings of the earth,” the leaders/fomenters of the HUMAN authorities you mentioned.

    I'm unclear how the adultery of the Harlot with the Kings of the world spawned more harlots. Can you please give me an example of this?

  • cofty
    Cofty's announcement of his endowment with superior reason - irondork

    I said that it was odd to hear Shelby refer to the esoteric meanings of 2000 year old apocalyptic literature as "important".

    I can understand people being interested in what the writer of Revelation meant in its 1st century context. To try to read anti-typical meanings into it, and to imagine it has anything to do with the 21st century is pure Fred Franz.

  • sabastious

    Facinating posts, Shelby. I will do my best to respond. As I suspected our interpretations are compatible, yet different.

    Unfortunately (or, as to the latter, fortunately), Babylon the Great is not as either you or the WTBTS intrepret her. She is not the "world empire of false religion" NOR "everything on earth... created by the "work of man's hands." She is the combined entities of Israel (including but not limited to Judaism) and "christianity" (the world of christendom)... including Judeo-Christianity... which is actually pretty easy to see when you look at her description: She is an adulteress.

    I interpret the Harlot as the earth. A captain calls his ship "her" and a car enthusiast calls his vehicle a female. Earth is the "pride and joy" of God who created her. Creating humans in the image of Himself and allowing them to dwell on the planet was a risk he took (which was an act of love). The result was them corrupting "mother earth" into a state of harlotry. This was all allowed because of the gift of free will.

    I cannot support an interpretation of the Harlot as JUST "Judaism and Christianity" because the harlotry goes much further than that. In the imagery in Revelation 13 we see that she is in union with the Scarlet Beast. This is a sexual relationship which makes it's bestiality. This connects to imagery in Genesis where you have a union between female and serpent which is also a sexual allusion. Eve was an adulteress with the serpent and therefore through time the "mother of all the living" becomes the "mother of abominations." Judaism and Christianity are not the only abominations that have existed on this planet. Every single religion and government that exists in antiquity are manned by children of the mother of abominations. Meaning that no matter how hard they try not to, they will always be an abomination and crumble because of it. The children of the Harlot include ALL organized religion and all government.

    However according to Romans 13 we know that God establishes human authorities. The greek word used is tassó

    tassó: to draw up in order, arrange
    Original Word: τ?σσω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: tassó
    Phonetic Spelling: (tas'-so)
    Short Definition: I assign, arrange
    Definition: (a) I assign, arrange, (b) I determine; mid: I appoint.

    So, God "draws up" government and then it's manned by the children of the mother of abominations. That's why governments have a measure of success in the beginning and eventually corrupt into oblivion or need to be destroyed. The same could be said about Judaism and Christianity. God "drew up" the OT and the NT and left the people to follow and maintain those laws, which of course they never do.

    Babylon the Great, then, is the composite of those adulterous people who either once belonged to God and/or Christ... or claimed to... and yet, in committing fornication with human authorities... killed the prophets sent to her to warn her of her adultery.

    Babylon the Great is called a "great city" in Revelation and this is because corrupt mother earth IS a composite city and it IS great. That city is controlled by the occult socities of the planet that have existed even before Jesus' day. People within that city have always had choice to worship IT or to worship God. That has always been the agenda of the occult societies: to get people to worship idols which means the worship is secretly being given to them and their master, who created the idols and know they are fake.

    I am not aware that this is true, except as to the WTBTS’ knowledge that they are part of the “World Empire of False Religion.” My understanding is that this is NOT true, that Babylon the Great really believes she still sits a queen and so is blind to her own position and place. She does not consider HERSELF the adulteress, but hypocritically sits in judgment of others (by means of her “royal” status).

    A "great city" is mentioned in Revelation 11 which is figuratively named "Sodom and Egypt." This is another reference to the occult societies that control the world. The reason the Mother of Abominations considers herself a queen is because of the comprehensive results from her systems of sexual deviance and mind control which are signified by the terms "Sodom" and "Egypt." The Watchtower doesn't identify with the Harlot, but the Beast out of the Earth because they practice false prophecy which is a system of MIND CONTROL. They are a room in the mansion so to speak, not the mansion itself.

    However, your position as to occult societies, etc., is not known to me.

    I would suggest doing more research on occult societies and you will see that they are spoken about in the Bible. The Watchtower is part of this web of socieities (they even call themselves "the society") and they understand that they all make up the collective "Babylon the Great" because they control all government and all religion behind the scenes. This is why they were part of the UN, because they are in bed with them.

    This is TRUE; however, I think you are misguided in your understanding of WHAT doctrine and organizational structure, which I will discuss in a separate post (which I will make in a bit).

    I meant doctrine and organizational structure in general as it pertains to religion and government. It's what they write down that is used to expose truth lovers with intent on killing them (ie Watchtower and Awake!). This happens when Watchtower adherents wake up from the cult. They actually want this to happen because it exposes them as WITHOUT the mark of the beast which is a death warrant while in the "great city." The whole judicial system is designed to kill the holy ones. The Watchtower has admitted that they would kill us while we sleep if they had the authority. But they do not so they have to settle with a destruction of character and family ties instead.

    Shelby, your understanding of the wounded head of the Scarlet Beast is very new to me, but it makes a lot of sense. Israel was a "stone the builders rejected" which is why God gave them specifically the Law. They earned it because they did not worship the idols of the land which were birthed by the Mother of Abominations. The "builders" are a reference to the occult societies. In our day in age we have an underground organization called "The Masons" which uses stone building as it's organizational symbol. These "builders" continue to add to the "great city" and have no intention on letting up. They sit "a queen" and do not believe that any can challenge their might. However, like everyone before them, they will fall into oblvion as they are children of the Mother of Abominations. What man builds up, God tears down.

    Matthew 24 - Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

    I appreciate your time, Shelby. Your a great help to me and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I know I have not addressed all your concerns, but I do not have a whole lot of time at the moment. Just know that we are not in disagreement, I believe both our perspectives are needed. This seems to be by design.


  • AGuest

    I hear you, dear Sab (the greatest of love and peace to you!), truly. I do not think we are in disagreement but just in different places of understanding, as perhaps Apollos was when addressed by Priscilla and Aquila.

    I'm unclear how the adultery of the Harlot with the Kings of the world spawned more harlots. Can you please give me an example of this?

    Yes, dear Irondork (peace to you, as well, dear one!):

    As those who were once joined to Christ and so part of his Bride, BTG became a "harlot" when she forsook the law of her husband, Christ, in order to fornicate with the "kings of the earth." Through those unions, NEW sects were "spawned"... "women"... by others saying THEY were in union with Christ/part of his Bride. For example, those who believed themselves in union with Christ... but could not tolerate the fornication of the RCC... and so started various sects of Protestantism. These, though, ALSO left the law of their husbandly-owner, Christ, to ALSO commit fornication.

    ALL of these are "women"... "harlots"... with which any who join themselves to "defile" themselves. It is only by remaining joined to CHRIST... and following him and HIS law ONLY... that they remain "chaste VIRGINS"... having only ONE husbandly-owner, the One they are promised in marriage to: the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).

    If they join themselves to ANY of these "women," they become "defiled" (because of the harlotry of such "women"). Because they are "touching [the] unclean thing." Hence, they are told to get OUT of her (which includes getting out of her "daughters")... so as not to share in her "plagues." Plagues are what often come upon someone UNclean.

    I hope this helps, dear ID. Again, peace to you!

    A doulos of Christ,


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