Sorry all, I know this is going off on a bit of a tangent from the main discussion, but I would like an answer
I think your questions are right in line with the main discussion (holy spirit), dear Nambo (peace to you!). Of course, the OP within his/her right to disagree and tell us all to take a hike from his/her thread, though... so we might find ourselves on another thread. For now, though...
Iam afraid those scriptures you quoted AGuest do not help,
Well, okay, let's take a look:
the one from Isaiah tells us the coal that touched Isaiahs lips were to atone for sin,
No, it didn't atone for his sin, but granted a cleansing... because we all sin with our lips (James 3:2, 8). Even Isaiah. Since he had sinned with his mouth at SOME point, it needed to be cleansed so that he could now speak TRUTH. Cleansing and atonement are not the same thing. Cleansing wipes away; however, atoning pays the price due.
I belive for Christians it is Jesus sacrifice that atones for sin,
And you are right. Blood... and not fire... atones. So that forgiveness can take place. Hebrews 9:22
Cleansing occurs... so that the body is prepared... so that it can be occupied by the spirit of God. Which is a CLEAN spirit and so must reside in... a clean VESSEL. For the fleshly body, that cleansing occurs by water (think Naaman). This is why my Lord had to undergo WATER baptism: he flesh was not clean (he had inherited from his fleshly mother, Mary, and so it had sin and death IN it). He had to be baptized in water to symbolize his "death"... and cleansing... as to the sin of his body of flesh... thus making his body an "acceptable vessel" to receive God's spirit. Which is exactly what occurred once he came up from the water: God's spirit descended upon him... and entered into him... now, making HIM the "temple" of God... the "place" where God's spirit now dwelled... and not the edifice at Jerusalem. Water baptism is in symbolization of cleansing the "cup"... with regards to the sin IN it.
not any cleansing by fire, and none of the other scriptures quoted back up fire being used to cleanse us,
Us, entirely, no. That with which we might "handle the utensils of God," though... like our lips?
wasnt Jesus blood enough to cleanse us?
Christ's blood ATONES for our sins, dear ones. Pays the price... so that we can be resurrected FROM death... and the body that sinned and died... TO life. It "covers" or "blots out" our sins, yes. But then one receives the "water" of life... holy spirit... which is GOD's blood... which cleanses one of sin OF THE SPIRIT. There is a difference. Here is how my... OUR... Lord explained it to me:
According to the Law, if a man had a night emission he was unclean. Did he MEAN to have it? Or did it just occur, due to the functions of his body? For Israel, those under the Law, water baptism "cleanses" one of such "sins" (sin against the Law). So, okay, now he masturbates. He doesn't necessarily HAVE to, but... well, we won't go into why he does/might, etc. The why is irrelevant. But he can't overcome the urgings of his body so he does it. In essence, he chooses to "sin." Christ's blood covers that. By faith in the atoning value of Christ's blood... which blood he took into the spirit realm and presented to God on BEHALF of those with faith... these can, while alive in the flesh, literally receive that blood, which is now SPIRIT, because HE is now a spirit... which blood is "holy spirit"... which cleanses the SPIRIT... the man on the INSIDE... who CHOSE to sin... and renders HIM "clean."
But what of the fire? The person who is chose to receive holy spirit is now not only a "chosen vessel"... but one who will be called upon to "carry the utensils" of JAH. S/he does that by, say, sharing the goods news about Christ. Speaking truth. But, again, one's mouth must be CLEAN... in order to carry God's truth IN it... or to have it come forth FROM it. And so fire is used to do that, cleanse the body PART (mouth... hands, say, for the laying on of hands... etc.).
Fire is a means for "refining," dear one. It smelts metals down so that the impurities can be skimmed off. And so, due to such "refining," one speaks what is given them by the Spirit... with accuracy... and TRUTHFULNESS. Because such is based on how CLEAN that mouth that utters them IS.
Now I felt a Baptism of Holy Spirit half hour after water baptism, I do not recall a feeling of being Baptised in Fire, would this be like a burning sensation?,
MAY THE HEAVENS REJOICE, dear one!! I am SO happy that you share this wonderful news with us!! And I am NOT being sarcastic, please understand... not at ALL! I am rejoicing that yet another has come forth to bear witness!
Please know, one is not baptized IN fire and holy spirit... but baptized WITH fire... and holy spirit. So, you felt the spirit, yes. But there is nothing to say that your baptism by fire is immediate, any more than being baptized with holy spirit is always immediate after baptism with water (or vice versa). And that was my point: some are of the mind that all of these things occur simultaneously... and there is NOTHING to suggest that, at all. The apostles received holy spirit after my Lord descended, but well after their water baptism (as did the men who Paul laid hands on). Cornelius' household received holy spirit FIRST... and THEN got baptized. Given that they probably had to travel down to the Jordan, surely these events didn't occur simultaneously, perhaps not even the same hour. Paul received holy spirit first, too... and THEN found his way to Ananias. Those who received holy spirit at Pentecost were surely baptized earlier... by John or by the disciples... even before my Lord was put on trial.
For those who have undergone water baptism to say that is all that is necessary, that baptism with holy spirit is not necessary, that is an error. For those who have received holy spirit but have not been water baptized, then there is no need for the first... unless one has been under the Law (Covenant) - hence, a Jew/Samaritan... or followed a religion that PUT them under the Law, although a non-Israelite.
For those who have received holy spirit (whether also water baptized or not)... to say that baptism with first is unecessary... because they have not yet received that "part"...
Well, I have just heard that that is only partly true. As I was typing I received more on this matter (actually, I receive the beginning of it some days ago... and shared it with some others but not here as I understood more to be coming). It is true for some... and not so for others. SOME would be baptized with fire AND spirit... and some would not (only with holy spirit). What I have just heard from my Lord is that John was speaking to those who came to him at the time... and particularly those who would become my Lord's disciples... and specifically those called to be "holy ones" - which is why such ones are also baptized with FIRE... it is what constitutes them a "holy" one... which is NOT all of those so called:
"To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be holy ones: ... I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles ..."Romans 1:7, 13
"To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ [Jesus] and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywherewho call on the name of our Lord [Jesus] Christ—their Lord and ours: " 1 Corinthians 1:1
To the church of God in Corinth,together with all his holy people throughout Achaia:" 2 Corinthians 1:1
"To the holy ones and faithful brothers in Christ who are in Colosse:" Colossians 1:1
"James, a slave of God and of the Lord [Jesus] Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad:" James 1:1
"Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands - that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ [Jesus] you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peaceto you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizenswith the holy ones and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, [Jesus] Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple of JaHVeH, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit." Ephesians 2:11-22
I have not shared this truth and what it's about in quite some time. I haven't... for the sake of those who might "stumble" over it. It is with reference to the "little flock" (which is Israel, both Jews AND Samaritans, the latter who are also Gentiles, because they are not Jews)... and the "other sheep"... which are non-Israelite Gentiles (the "nations"). And no, no... the WTBTS doesn't have it "right", not at all and not by a stretch, so no need to concern yourself about THAT.
Deep exhalation. Well, now... what to do...
Unfortunately, I simply don't have the freedom to share it here. But I will share it... and soon... elsewhere. I am sorry to have to leave you hanging HERE, but I have to do as my Lord directs me - it is his "food" after all, not mine... and belongs to HIS sheep, not my sheep... or anyone else. You know where to find me, though, so if you can bear with me and grant a little patience... I will continue this there.
anybody actually able to discribe what it felt like to be Baptised in fire?
With fire, yes. I will share that, as well. Again, though, I must ask your patience as it may be a day or so...
My sincere apologies, but I must obey, dear one. I am SURE you understand that.
Again, peace to you... and to your dear household! May JAH bless and keep you ALL!
YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
SA
