Fallacy of Baptism "in Holy Spirit"!

by The Searcher 86 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Searcher:

    Quite clearly, (from the Bible evidence) everyone who repents and gets batized, receives the Holy Spirit at their baptism.

    1 John 2:27 has 2 of the 4 occurrances of "anointing" as applied to disciples of Jesus. (The other 2 are 2 Cor 1:21 and 1 Jn 2:20.)

    (1 John 2:24-29) . . .As for YOU, let that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remain in YOU. If that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remains in YOU, YOU will also abide in union with the Son and in union with the Father. 25 Furthermore, this is the promised thing that he himself promised us, the life everlasting. 26 . . . 27 And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in union with him. 28 So now, little children, remain in union with him, that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not be shamed away from him at his presence. 29 If YOU know that he is righteous, YOU gain the knowledge that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him.

    I included it above for ease of consideration. But if you notice in John's discussion, the ideas of, "what you have heard from the beginning" and, "the anointing from him is teaching you" suggest that "the anointing" is something that normally occurs at baptism (assuming that "the beginning" refers to the start of a Christian's career as a disciple.).

    I think the occurances that are out of the ordinary (tongues of fire at Pentecost and Cornelius anointed before water baptism) can be explained by the fact that they were inaugurative type events (First anointed Christians at Pentecost, and first Gentile.) There was another instance in Acts where Samaritans were baptized with water but not Spirit. But it only waited for Peter's arrival which confirmed his having been given the keys to the kingdom which jesus promised Peter. (From Mt 16)

    Jesus' discussion of being born from water and spirit (John 3) gives no indication that there would be one without the other.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    In ancient Christianity, everyone who was baptized received the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands by those authorized to confer it. Nowhere do the scriptures state that only some received it. Today, most sects don't offer the gift of the Spirit by the laying on of hands...just baptism by water. But water is only one half the baptism.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you all have peace! Unfortunately, the Bible actually does not say what some here suggest on this matter. If you will permit me, I will share with you what it does say... and what my Lord has borne witness to me is TRUE:

    1. Water baptism was for Jews/Israel, only... and not the nations. Because water baptism... the baptism of "John"... is in symbolization of having "died" as to sin manifest by means of the Law Covenant - sins of the FLESH. So, only those under the Law Covenant need(ed) to undergo water baptism. Which means... only Israel... because the nations were never under the Law. They never entered into the Covenant (which Israel did when they approached God at Sinai). However, they (the nations), now along with Israel who accepted it, could now enter into the NEW Covenant... which THEY enter by approaching "Zion"... and being baptized with FIRE/SPIRIT... in symbolization of dying as to the sins of the SPIRIT (many of which far, far surpassed Israel's transgressions of the flesh!). Water "cleanses" as to the flesh; fire cleanses as to the spirit. Holy spirit is "living water". And so while water baptism is in symbolization of repentance and cleansing of transgressions committed under the Law... and of the flesh... baptism by fire and spirit cleanses of BOTH: transgressions of the flesh AND of the SPIRIT.

    2. John (the Baptizer) said that although HE would baptize with water, there was one coming after him, the sandals of whom he wasn't fit to tie, who would baptize in fire and spirit. Matthew 3:1, 11; Mark 1:6-8; Luke 3:16; John 1:19, 25-31

    3. Cornelius and HIS household... Israelites (by means of being from among the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel, the "Samaritans", and so not a Jew)... received holy spirit FIRST... and THEN were baptized in water. Acts 10:1-4, 24, 44-48

    4. About 12 men... who had been water baptized ("in John")... did not receive holy spirit until some time later, when they ran into Paul, who "baptized" them by laying his hands on them. Acts 19:1-7

    5. The reason Paul said that there was ONE baptism... is because he was addressing the Ephesians, people of the NATIONS, for whom there really was only one baptism, by fire and spirit... because they Ephesians had not ever been under the Law:

    "Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ [Jesus] you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groupsone and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through himwe both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

    " Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by hisSpirit." Ephesians 2:11-22

    Some will try to dispute what I have shared here by using Cornelius and the Ethiopian Eunuch. However, both men were Israel, Cornelius, a Ceasarean, which was a town in Samaria. The Samaritans were those of the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel (vs. the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah and Benjamin, the Jews). That's why my Lord had the particularly discussion he did with the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well. When she said, "Our forefathers used to worship in these mountains," she meant hers AND my Lords forefathers... the men of the 12 tribes. They worshipped in the mountains before Solomon built the temple... and after the rift between Solomon's son, Rehoboam, and one of Solomon's general's, Jeroboam, split the kingdom... "Israel" (the 10-tribe kingdom) followed him BACK to the mountains... where he established an unsanctioned priesthood at Bethel, the capital of Samaria. Cornelius... was a Samaritan.

    The Eunuch was a Jew by birth/blood, but an Ethiopian by nationality. Ethopians were the descendants of Cush and this one was of the remnant that was to be recoved from Cush, through Benjamin, and thus, a Jew by means of the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah/Benhamin (Judges 3:15; 1 Chronicles 7:10; Psalm 7:1 supp; Isaiah 11:1; 18:1). He had come to Jerusalem to worship at the temple and was reading from Isaiah when Philip was told to approach him. Once Philip explained Christ to him, the Eunuch was baptized... BY Philip... in the baptism of "John" - water baptism. The account does not say he received holy spirit just then, but there is no reason to believe he didn't receive later, and maybe even pretty quickly.

    In order to know whether one should undergo one (baptism by fire and spirit)... or both (baptism by fire/spirit and water)... one would have to know whether one is an Israelite by BLOOD... and the ONLY way to know that is by holy spirit (not all who profess to be Israel are Israel). Because it is through this that Abraham's blood "speaks" to God. If one is concerned, one can simply ask... and put faith in what one hears from the Spirit. And if one hears that one is NOT Israel by BLOOD... then only baptism by fire and spirit are necessary.

    If one asks and hears that one IS Israel by blood... then one should undergo water baptism... if one wants to do "just so." Even if one has never practiced Judaism. Because, as a "christian", one most probably was put back UNDER the Law... by whatever "christian" religion one practiced. And if you obey one... you are bound by all. In addition, Israel bound its progeny. So, again, if one wants to do "just so"... and has heard that one is Israel by BLOOD... one should consider it.

    HOWEVER, it is not NECESSARY: baptism by... and into... Christ, the baptism with fire and spirit "covers" ALL sin, save only blasphemy against holy spirit. So, if one decides to seek only that baptism, it will not be held against them if they forewent water baptism.

    I hope this helps... and, again, peace to you, all!

    Servant to the Household of God, Israel... and those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I was baptized and confirmed. Also, anointed with holy oil at a high church. The Holy Spirit can act in many ways. It should not be gaudy or flashy. Paul acknowledge that speaking in tongues was a gift of the Spirit. Next, he stated that it was the least useful gift and did not build up others.

    I am not stating my opinion. All I am doing is quoting St. Paul.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Nowhere do the scriptures state that only some received it.

    Ummmmm... does saying that some DIDN'T receive it count, dear CS (peace to you!)?

    "When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the holy Spirit, because the holy spirit had not yet come on any of them ; they hadsimply been baptized in the name of the Lord [Jesus] . Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the holy spirit.

    " When Simon saw that spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive holy spirit.”

    " Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

    " Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.” Acts 8:12-24

    Ummmm... Simon, although also baptized... certainly didn't receive any holy spirit right away.

    I realize some may think I'm "correcting" and "nit-picking," but I IMPLORE you... each and every one of you: if you won't at least go to Christ as ask as to these things... so as to expound them to others "more accurately"... then AT LEAST read your bible... before publishing what it does... and does not... say. Please. Just like don't want to BE misled, I am sure you don't want to MISLEAD anyone else, either. Right?

    Peace to you, all!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Some were christened, baptized, confirmed, baptized again... and then again... and still didn't receive holy spirit as a result. Not until having gone to the One who dispenses it... or those to whom he has already given it (who he has authorized to act as his "ambassadors"). And although it is referred to as the "oil of exultation," it really isn't literal oil. You can't buy it in a store. Because no store "sells" it (Matthew 25:1-12).

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • DeWandelaar
    DeWandelaar

    Acts 10:44-48 tells us that Cornelius was a person who got baptized in Spirit first... and after that he got baptised in water...

    44 While Peter was still saying these things, ithe Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among jthe circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because kthe gift of the Holy Spirit lwas poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them mspeaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 n“Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit ojust as we have?” 48 And he pcommanded them qto be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

  • The Searcher
    The Searcher

    @BOBCAT

    "Jesus' discussion of being born from water and spirit (John 3) gives no indication that there would be one without the other" - sums it up nicely!

    No two-tier baptism and no two-tier Christians. Unless of course you search for "other sheep" on the Watchtower Library, (in Watchtowers) then it becomes very clear that there are 1st & 2nd Class Christians, with the 2nd Class being ever so grateful to the 1st Class for allowing them to tag along in the glory of the 1st Class!!

    Spiritual groupies???????

    The arrogance and pomposity exhibited is stomach churning!

    Test the inspired expressions!!

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    "Jesus' discussion of being born from water and spirit (John 3) gives no indication that there would be one without the other" - sums it up nicely!

    For Jews there was/is both... but not necessarily at the same time, dear Searcher (peace to you!). Indeed, excluding the apostles, those who WERE baptized in water ("John's baptism"... because Christ did not baptize ANYONE in H20)... didn't receive holy spirit until it was poured out at Pentecost. The Apostles didn't receive it when THEY were baptized either (which they were before my Lord died), but after my Lord had died, resurrected, and appeared to them (John 20:22). They had been baptized by John themselves (they had been HIS disciples and, when John identified my Lord to them, they became that One's disciples - Matthew 3:1-17; Luke 3:21; John 1:28-51). Until his death, JOHN... was the baptizer for Israel; however, although many had been baptized by him... in WATER (H20)... they did not receive the promised holy spirit. Because... it had not been poured OUT, yet. (John 7:37-39)

    Once Christ came... with LIVING "water" (the "water" of Life) in which to baptize folks (John 4:7-14), no one got RE-BAPTIZED in H20 water. Rather, they all looked forward to baptism by means of that LIVING water... holy spirit... which was the "baptism with fire and spirit" that John had told them was coming.

    But... ah, well... you can try to lead a horse to[ward the One who dispenses] water... and baptizes in holy spirit and fire (John 1:41; Luke 3:16; 1 Corinthians 10:4; Exodus 17:6; Numbers 20:8; John 4:14; 7:37, 38)... but... that's really ALL you can do (John 6:44; 1 Corinthians 3:6, 7).

    Peace to you ALL!

    Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

    SA, who's just puttin' it out there...

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Fellow Forum Members:

    It is dangerous to rely on anyone's personal view. There are abundant resources for free on the internet and in public libraries to know many opinions on this matter. Always ask for a reference to what someone is saying. If it is their own personal fancy, they should make it clear that it is their fancy.

    If you still believe in the Bible, I found that reading the text of the Bible in consecutive verses for an entire Bible book provides much insight. In fact, I purposely did not read any commentaries until after I decided what the text meant for myself. Later, I did consult commentaries to flesh it out.

    NT is not my field of expertise. Several college and seminary courses heightened my awareness that different scholars reach different conclusions.

    It is easy to be led astray by denominational literature such as the WT. I have no idea how to protect myself from this completely. My partial solution was to call a nondenominational Protestant seminary's bookstore and ask what the leading books in the field were. Several seminaries are connected to secular universities.

    If you now doubt the WT, doubt anyone. Your own gut instinct is a reliable tool for not falling into another cult. The importance of reading the Bible unaided and in consecutive verses rather than proofing doctrine all over the Bible is that larger issues emerge. The Witnesses weigh us down with silly detail. If God says something that is similar to 98% of the Bible, we should question the 2%.

    As for this topic, I do not have a clue. It is not important in my present church. Larger issues exist. I believe the better view is that God created us with brains to use. We have consciences, too. Anyone claiming to know it all should be questioned.

    Scriptures can be complex. This particular matter has theological consequences that are debated to this very day. Most likely, there is no one correct answer. Beware people with answers.

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