What evidence is there for Jesus (NOT USING THE BIBLE)?

by punkofnice 139 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    The dates you cite are outside the range given for Jesus' life. I believe the best proof is the graffiti shown. It is antiChristian. The graffiti shows the centrality of the cross to Christanity from an early date.

    Contemporary means someone alive who saw Jesus and was not influenced by the teachings of the church. Literacy was not high in the first century.

    If a miracle worker actually worked miracles, I would expect a trace in Jewish, Roman, and Greek literature.

    I wonder how news spread. There is no doubt there is no good evidence for Jesus' live. Scholars believe Jesus probably lived. The absent of a historical record is troubling.

  • FlyingHighNow
    There are thousands of early Christian letters, sermons, commentaries, and creeds about Jesus appearing as early as 5 years after his crusifixion. In total there are over 36,000 of such non-Biblical writings, many from the 1st century, that if compiled could reconstruct the new testament minus a few verses. Look at the historical impact alone that Jesus has had.
    No academically honest scholor whether Christian, Agnostic, or Atheist would deny the existance of Jesus as a person. Don't be miseld by that claim.

    I have to say that I came to the same conclusion when I was 17. I had no belief in the Bible as a book from God. But I could see all around me the historical impact of Jesus.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Would that be anything like the historical impact of Joseph Smith FHN? I look all around and see young men in suits riding bicycles...LOL

  • AGuest
    I choose to wear modern attire

    You apparently haven't seen the recent Polo, Abercrombie & Fitch, and like advertisements. These days, "modern" attire for men apparently even includes thongs (shudder).

    and ; given your expression of a preference for the retro look, I take it you're sporting a pair of granny panties?

    Oh, don't you WISH you could know! Uh-uh, buddy - you ain't gonna get yer jollies vicariously through me - my panties are nunna your dang business. Even so, I don't think they sell granny chonies in the junior section.

    "Butt squeezes?"

    Well, I mean, I didn't think Kegels worked for ya'll mens, but... well, if that'll help a brutha out... why not?

    I take my fitness pretty seriously, so I've never had the inclination to watch Richard Simmons.

    Oh, c'mon, now... you know there's nothing sexier in your world than seein' Miss Rich sweatin' (to the oldies)...

    Is his workout giving you results?

    Nope. But my husband's workouts give HIM great results. And he's looking REALLY good, these days! Me, I don't set foot in a gym: people SWEAT there! Ewwwwwww...

    A slave of Christ,

    SA, on her own...

  • Ticker

    Band on the Run do you consider Alexander the Great to be a mythical person. Only 5 ancient sources make up his know history written over 300 years after his existence with no eyewitnesses and yet no one claims he didn't exist.

    In Jesus we have writings within 5 years of his death whether Christian or not is strong evidence. Never mind the mass amount of writings that have survived till today. 36,000 can you imagine how many there must have been originally. Then Tacitus a Roman Historian with more benefit to deny Jesus then mention him has acknowledge Jesus' existence. A man who was born roughly 20 years later and was literate with no influence of Christian teachings. Christ-myth theory has been refuted and almost all scholors accept Jesus being in existence. Thallus a pagan writes of Christ 20 years after his death. Even though Thallus' birth date is unknown it's not an illilogical possibility that he was a contemporary or at least was likely a child around the death of Christ.

    One can close their eyes to this and stand stubborn in the minority and deny Christ ever existed but is this really being fair or rather being biased?

  • FlyingHighNow

    Hey, Still, Joseph Smith did exist and as you say, he has had a historical impact.

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    Just look at everything that has been written about Harry Potter or Edward Cullen. We even have motion pictures of them showing their daily lives. What more proof do you need that they are also real?

    Edit to add: OMG! And how can we forget Santa? Just look at all the presents he's given, pictures that he's in, and books and movies featuring him. People may try to question the existance of Jesus, but who can deny that Santa Claus is really real? Only the Grinch, that's who!

  • Phizzy

    Fairies are real. My wife said so.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    You claim there are references within five years of his death? What are they? You can't make such a self-assertion. I've followed the "historical Jesus," the actual person and not the church teachings, since the mid 1970s. Every academic books I have ever read, from believer or nobelievers, highlights the total lack of contemporary evidence.

    I don't believe five years is a credibles source or I would have found it decades ago.

    Despite the paucity of evidence, almost all "historical Jesus" scholars believe a Jesus existed. They are at a loss, however, to figure out what he actuall preached. It would be easier for us to view if we were Hindu or Buddhist.

    The graffito of the donkey on the cross is universally cited as one of the first signs of the beliefs concerning Jesus.

    Most of those who believe in Christ, as the church teaches, will deny any historical record or insights. Regardless of what I have studied, I have a vivid Christ in my mind. A Christ of my own construct, aided by a life enveloped by a traditionally Christian tradition. Who hasn't seen Michealangelo's Sistine Chapel or Da Vinci's Last Supper in prints? I don't know if we can ever confront Jesus of Nazareth, who died a Jew.

    From my personal perspective, I don't see any clue that his apostles understood him. Something powerful happened at Pentecost, according to church tradition. These meek, clueless apostles became fiere defenders of the faith, according to tradition. Paul emerged and challenged them. Also, who here can rid themselves of countless generations of Jesus portrayls to accurately perceive the historical Jesus. I was young when JFK was assassinated. When the news reporters reported Catholic legend, I believed it was absolute truth. Some generations see a fearsome Jesus, others such as the Victorians, a meek lover of children. Yet the "historical Jesus" can be only one person.

    It is possible to put faith in temporary suspension and read experts in the field. Scholars who know Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. People who understand the culture of the MIddle East and Rome during this period. I am an enthusiast b/c of the Witnesses. I have a plethora of text books. Some of the books are popularized for a mass market. Learning these items increased my faith. Now I can see a "historical Jesus" who is truly human. He was perfect in the older English sense of complete. If a less magical version of Jesus existed, Christ can be present in my daily, run of the mill life. Also, such a Jesus would have no foreknowledge of today's events. Of course, one can also view that Jesus may have existed but he was no Messiah. My belief is a choice. If people have read Life of Pi, I choose the story with the zoo animals.

    I will leave a list later today or this evening. Perhaps a few people are not threatened by the truth, as now defined by academics.

  • mP


    It's been stated on board at one time or another that the "Golden Rule" goes back to another prophet/deity 2 or 3 BC? Can't recall who it was.


    Buddha had similar teachings and hes much older than jesus.

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