phizzyone for each unicorn lol
Do People Believe We Are Condemned B/c of Adam and Eve?
by Band on the Run 93 Replies latest jw friends
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sabastious
Human conjecture is one thing. Proof from God is another.
Proof FROM God of himself is in every particle of matter that exists. Order exists and this is not by coincidence. The greatest of all order is that which makes up Love. At first glance love seems to be weak, feeble and vulnerable to exploitation and of course it is. However, the true strength, and ultimate superiority, of love is only fully expressed while under stress. It is LOVE that proves God and it is LOVE that human morality is based on. Human morality is but a fragment of the glory of God whom IS Love itself. Human morality is but a crude model, a cheap knock off.
Christ performed miracles, according to the gospels, and most failed to follow him. Asking for proof for an outrageous statement makes sense.
Asking for proof is certainly the most sensible thing to do. However that is how the Serpent is described in Genesis. The Hebrew word translated as "cunning" or "crafty" also involves the thinking process of being "sensible" or "shrewd."
Genesis 3:1 - Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
arum: crafty, shrewd, sensibleOriginal Word: ??????
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: arum
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-room')
Short Definition: manRight now you are valuing your shrewdness on the matter which makes you a sensible person. However, what value is there in being shrewd in all regards? Is shrewdness a trait of Love? Quite the opposite, actually. Love is often blind and reckless and always founded in risk. That's why we fear it so much. To have an ultimate goal of simply stability is to deny love because love involves RISK which is unstable. It is LOVE that progresses society and that is a fact that is not well understood.
Otherwise, it is fiction.
Yes, or unfactual as you would say. Deeming ancient Scripture unfactual is a very powerful position to take. I held to such a stance more so than I do now at one point in my life. However, I realized that such is not a loving approach and is riddled with pitfalls. Such an approach easily can warp into cynicism and vindictiveness and such traits I do not want to nourish within myself.
-Sab
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Band on the Run
Being intelligent, sophsticated, and well-informed can never serve you ill. This is the JW lie that equates intelligence with evil. You put up translations of the Bible with no reference. How am I suppose to know how valid your chosen translation is? I had to reference books and articles in junior high school.
This myth has caused humans to debate its merits and fairness ever since it was written, probably millions of years after the event. I see it as a tentative way of describing human suffering and death. I doubt if its contemporary audience found it very useful. Job makes no sense in terms of suffering. The answer to Job is to conclude that humans are more moral than YWYH.
I studied and pondered human suffering during my illness. My conclusion is that there is no neat answer. If this is the type of God you wish to worship, one that causes small children to be murdered in Conn while at school, allowed the Holocaust in Germany and countless more around the world, sees good people suffering from ALS and cancer, then you have First Amendment rights in this country. I refuse to worship such a God. In fact, I call such a God Satan and spit on Him.
Slavery existed in the United States. Many people in the South felt it was wrong but just went along with societal norms. Northerners made massive amounts from the trade. Yet slavery was forbidden by the Thirteenth Amendment. We do not have to believe the mistakes of our ancestors forever. Humans existed countless years before Genesis was written. What makes Genesis correct out of the all world civilization? It is only those few remaining people who are misinformed and believe it to be literal truth. Few Christian churches teach it is literal today. My church does not teach so.
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sabastious
Being intelligent, sophsticated, and well-informed can never serve you ill. This is the JW lie that equates intelligence with evil.
Can't argue with that.
You put up translations of the Bible with no reference. How am I suppose to know how valid your chosen translation is? I had to reference books and articles in junior high school.
It doesn't matter which translation I am using, the Scripture serves as an acceptable citation. If you notice I always try to make note of the scriptures I am using. I am almost certain you have the internet so I know you can easily travel to sites like BibleGateway or BibleSuite and access the original data. I know you to be a woman who doesn't like her hand held. Do you think my posts should have more links to resources and tools?
This myth has caused humans to debate its merits and fairness ever since it was written, probably millions of years after the event.
You are forgetting the fact that we don't know the originators of the myth. We cannot pinpoint the precise point in time when the fable entered society. Unless we know the motivations of the creators (which would require knowing the creators) of the myth we cannot make any concrete secular conclusions. The document is far more spiritual than it is secular (Hebrews 4:12). Also the myth cannot be blamed for anything. That would be like blaming a chair you stubbed your toe on.
I see it as a tentative way of describing human suffering and death.
There is nothing tenative about Scripture especially the Torah which contains the Adam and Eve fable. The entire document was created with the intent to end certain world breaking debates, such as the choice between poly and mono theism. "In the beginning God" means a single entity. The Torah explicitly prohibits under penalty of death to worship celesital bodies. There is a remarkable amount of modern thought in the Torah. This document was not created to gather dust or serve some temporary purpose, but to be on book shelves of every single human and consulted in times of turmoil and unrest or to help gain tranquility and enlightenment.
I doubt if its contemporary audience found it very useful. Job makes no sense in terms of suffering. The answer to Job is to conclude that humans are more moral than YWYH.
Huh? Torah study was a staple of Jewish society and it separated them from the pack. A big reason why they were so hated was because they were so educated and sophistcated in their time. It was, in part, a matter of jealousy. It has long been wrongly thought that civilizations like Egypt, Babylon, Rome and Great Britain are required for creating a leanred, sophisticated citizen. Yet, in defiance of the modern grain Israel has always had their own spiritual and educative frameworks. This effectively made them competition with world powers and needed to be cut down to size. Rome at one point wanted to build a trade route directly through Israel's territory. They were regarded as less than human which makes them the perfect candidate to be chosen by God. What the world casts away, God makes into kings and priests.
Job is just eastern Yin/Yang theology in disguise. A beautiful and pure document.
I studied and pondered human suffering during my illness. My conclusion is that there is no neat answer. If this is the type of God you wish to worship, one that causes small children to be murdered in Conn while at school, allowed the Holocaust in Germany and countless more around the world, sees good people suffering from ALS and cancer, then you have First Amendment rights in this country. I refuse to worship such a God. In fact, I call such a God Satan and spit on Him.
I understand the anger, I share it as well. However all that anger melts like the wicked witch from Wizard of Oz when the truth about God is realized. The truth is that he is in the business of creating incredible intelligence and during that process there are points where his hands ARE tied behind his back. The truth is that he loves us and wishes to SAVE us from pain, not put us through it. Your opinion in this regard is opposite of the truth.
Now, if someone was trying to save your life, but failed because they were obstructed, would you condemn them as a failure? This is the role of each and every person who chooses to have a child. Once the child is born the parent is locked into a struggle to save the child's life. The goal is to ensure a death at a ripe age with many positive accomplishments, however there is a resistance to that goal. Do we condemn the parents of the children who died in Connecticut? Do we lash out at them for sending their kids to an obviously dangerous environment? No, we mourn with them and their plight. We look to improve our environment, not "curse God and die."
The Torah shows a God who regrets the pain and suffering that has been caused by allowing free will. However, God knows what road this species treads, and that is one to eternal brilliance and happiness. It's a promise and one that we should know, in our hearts, will be kept.
-Sab
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Pterist
I have entertained the idea that mankind came by Darwin's theory of evolution, and that the evolution process was God's design, however, to be consistant with the Christian teaching of the ransom, Adam and Eve would need to be a direct creation in the evolution chain and were free mortal agents with the choice of Eternal life or Eternal death.
The foreordained plan from eternity was NOT one of condemnation, but an opportunity of eternal life. The pivitol point in history (time) where eternity erupted into our world was the death and resurrection of the slain lamb of God. The FIRST and the LAST. In this one act all consequences of freewill, sin, evil, and all conditions for righteousness and justice was established forever. The cross foolishness to the wise of this world, but is Gods wisdom and power.
Seasonal greetings to all.
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sabastious
So, Faith=Delusion.
Wrong. Faith = Fidelity. This is why there is a harlot depicted in Revelation which is closely associated with the kings of the earth. It shows an unfaithful spouse which represents a turning away from God in favor of another. To remain faithful is a requirement of any lasting relationship whether it be romantic or not. Based on your logic all marriage vows are delusional as they ask for unyielding faithfulness from the opposite party.
-Sab
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Band on the Run
One can selectively quote from scripture to prove any argument. The JWs do it every single day. Context is important. It is silly to believe that the Jews are any more noble or brighter than any other group. There is nothing special to give their brand of religion legitimacy. What did happen was that Christianity adopted the OT to give stature to a new religion. Jews are humans, not better or worse. We have these stories in our contemporary culture for political and cultural reasons. Ask a Buddhist or Hindu what they think of the Torah.
It is strange that an ancient Middle Eastern religion spread through Europe. Jews, however, were important in European history but never the majority group. Without Christianity, we would probably not know Torah or value it so highly. I studied anthropology. Jewish or Christian exceptionalism is as bonkers as American exceptionalism.
You believe by faith. So do I. I try not to have an ill-informed faith. My view is that many roads lead to a spiritual life. The Christ is merely one. He just happens to be the main actor in the religious tradition of the faith into which I was born. JWs do not even truly believe in Christ. They are YHWHist of ancient Israel with a smattering of bizarre NT belief.
I prefer to be open to all influences than rigidly belief in ancient scriptures. The world did not begin with a single human. It is totally ridiculous. Predestination, foreknowledge, and free will are impossible. I am hardly the first human to comment on the inherent fallacy in this account. The scriptures are no more determinate than WT literature is determinate. One can respect one's faith tradition without falling victim to believing it is the only one or proven true.
Christ resonates for me. I affirm that Christ is fully human and fully God. Would I believe so if I were born in a different culture. I believe not.
Western social sciences use to proclaim others cultures uncivlized. Knowledge moved forward. To do so now is the greatest heresy. Perhaps b/c I lived in one of the main melting pots of the world, NYC, I knew many individual from other cultures. They were not any less than I was. It is vulgar to proclaim your culture's truth (and I do believe it is no longer a cultural belief. Secularism reigns in most educated circles) the one true one.
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Skbj
@U-raven...that's true one needs faith to believe certain things, and I defintely don't possess it.
Why faith has to be about mystery of things we cannot see? I don't get it. If God gave the bible for people to find "salvation" why make stuff complicated?
It's like those who refuse to acknoledge they are together with the wrong person and believe that living in a difficult relationship and arguing all the time is what love is, when reality is, love is simple, you only realize it when you meet the right person and when you see that everything that was difficult or impossible with others now it's natural.
To me truth is the same way. It's not tortuos, it's not complex, it's not hard to understand and to believe. Faith on the contrary is complex, demanding, and inexplicable.
Forget for a second what the bible reppresent to those who have faith, imagine it didn't existed, that religions never existed, and your neighbour came told you this story, you'd tell the person they were crazy, so why is that we so believe something so much that we put faith in it just because it's written on some ancient text? Adam and Eve story in today's law would fit an entrapment scenario. Couldn't even stand in a court of law.
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unstopableravens
skbj: im vibing with you ,but i dont see it being complicated, there are principles when understanding the bible,and its makes sense to me. yes there is not the high proof of things like would be exspected in court today. but i believe the bible is accurate and true. i know you have a honest heart.
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sabastious
One can selectively quote from scripture to prove any argument. The JWs do it every single day. Context is important. It is silly to believe that the Jews are any more noble or brighter than any other group. There is nothing special to give their brand of religion legitimacy. What did happen was that Christianity adopted the OT to give stature to a new religion. Jews are humans, not better or worse. We have these stories in our contemporary culture for political and cultural reasons. Ask a Buddhist or Hindu what they think of the Torah.
My selection of quotes is directly from the content referenced in the OP (Adam and Eve i.e Genesis 2-3). The Watchtower is purposefuly deceptive, I hope you do not equate me with such deception as it would be a misrepresentation of the facts (not to mention rude).
It IS silly to believe that the Jews are a chosen people without providing sufficient evidence. The evidence, however, can be found in our historical record and the Scripture produced from the ancestors of this planet. The Torah birthed Christianity as Jesus came to fulfill Jewish law. This was not merely a political move, but one empowered by the will of the people who freely chose to follow the Spirit of Christ rather than men. The Romans eventually had to give in and accept it as the official state religion. Believe me they didn't want to do this, they were about total control, but they were not about to integrate Christ into their every day lives without a fight. They fought for as long as they could, but the will of the people won in the end. It is truly epic irony that after such brutal persecution of the Christians the ideologies ended up becoming the staple of Roman society into the distant future. This was a DEFEAT for Rome, not a victory as you seem to be purporting. They would much rather have had a DIFFERENT religious ideology, but they had no other choice if they wanted to continue their reign of power. In the end they were exposed as merely power hungry fools and now they are dust.
Buddhism and Hinduism doesn't acknowledge the superiority of the Torah becuase, like Ancient Rome, they only will do this when they have too. Jewish Scripture can be proven to be more than adequate when put up against anything else. For now the societies which favor other religions as superior are actually settling for an inferior tradition. It's not like those religious lead to the pits of hell, but the Torah must be acknolwedged, that it's purpose to permeate ALL of society. Without acceptence it is blocked and not fulfilling it's purpose. Both those societies you mentioned could easily make use of the spiritual frameworks taught through the Torah and it easily intergrates with what they have. However, if they choose their traditions over the Torah they will eventually corrupt because they are NOT enough. They will be exposed and be forced to accept the truth, it's only a matter of time which comes with suffering and agony. The choice has always been up to us and it's no different with them.
It is strange that an ancient Middle Eastern religion spread through Europe.
It's curious to me that you would find this strange. Clearly the Spirit of Christ is a real entity with power and authority. There isn't anything about Christianity that is glorifying unless you are into martyrdom. People have always died for their beliefs, but there is an obvious specialness to the stories of Christian faith that end in public execution. This is because what they experienced was REAL and worth dying for. The evidence is their consistant martyrdom. Why on such a large scale? The answer is that the Spirit of Christ is REAL and always has been. Something DID happen in the 1st century of which deperate attempts were made to cover it up. What we have is a mystery that requires solving and the solution is up to each individual (Philippians 2:12).
Jews, however, were important in European history but never the majority group. Without Christianity, we would probably not know Torah or value it so highly. I studied anthropology. Jewish or Christian exceptionalism is as bonkers as American exceptionalism.
Like I said Christianity is a direct result of the Torah and all it has to offer. Christ came to fulfill THAT particular law and now we have something to work with. Christ came with freedom and it's been here ever since, we just have to reach out and grab it like a wildflower in a meadow.
Jewish and Christian exceptionalism is a fact and those veins of gold in society paved the way for free nations like America. It's the western world that is exceptional which was redefined by America. It's the ideology that is exceptional which goes all the way back to the Torah (and the I CHING but that's another subject). Free western society is a direct result of Jewish and Christian Scripture.
You believe by faith. So do I. I try not to have an ill-informed faith. My view is that many roads lead to a spiritual life. The Christ is merely one. He just happens to be the main actor in the religious tradition of the faith into which I was born. JWs do not even truly believe in Christ. They are YHWHist of ancient Israel with a smattering of bizarre NT belief.
I used to feel the same way as you. I used to get mad at people for saying Christ is the only way, but that was because I didn't understand what that meant. While Buddhism and many religions are totally great, they don't work on the long term by themselves. Just look at India and China, they are not doing too well. This is because they are not embracing Christianity in the ways that they could. There is a false conception that accepting Christ means giving up your tradition. The truth is that Christ works WITH your tradition and is fully compatible with any train of thought the originates with Love. The prophets/gurus that start religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism are all loving and caring individuals. All have godly traits and should not be tossed into the trash in favor of Christ. However, Christ is still REAL and is the King of the Universe which means it's in everybodies best interest to learn about and eventually serve Him. Christ is the King of Buddah because Buddah was a king (Revelation 17:14).
I prefer to be open to all influences than rigidly belief in ancient scriptures. The world did not begin with a single human. It is totally ridiculous. Predestination, foreknowledge, and free will are impossible. I am hardly the first human to comment on the inherent fallacy in this account. The scriptures are no more determinate than WT literature is determinate. One can respect one's faith tradition without falling victim to believing it is the only one or proven true.
You are afraid of discriminating and that is a noble trait. It HAS been a human flaw since the beginning so your caution is more than warrented. The point I am trying to drive home is that all religion is compatible with Christianity except the one's the oppose Christ (Mark 9:40). Religion has NEVER been at odds with each other there just has been a wedge called racism between them all for as long as we can remember. The fact that you avoid discrimination like the plague is extremely encouraging. It shows that our society is improving and growing towards God.
Christ resonates for me. I affirm that Christ is fully human and fully God. Would I believe so if I were born in a different culture. I believe not.
So, do you believe Christ is ALSO Brahma or any other documented deities? Who historically do you mean by "Christ"?
Western social sciences use to proclaim others cultures uncivlized. Knowledge moved forward. To do so now is the greatest heresy. Perhaps b/c I lived in one of the main melting pots of the world, NYC, I knew many individual from other cultures. They were not any less than I was. It is vulgar to proclaim your culture's truth (and I do believe it is no longer a cultural belief. Secularism reigns in most educated circles) the one true one.
Ever since the Torah was written people had the opportunity to understand that ALL humans were created equal. As they were ALL made in the image of the One True God. The Torah starts out by equalizing all the nations by putting every living person, regardless of gender or race, all in one pot called "God's Offspring." That's why the Torah is SO important, because it sets down the precedent for human freedom (Genesis 1:26).
-Sab