I was actually asked this question not long ago. I answered "Well, I call them Jehovans with a side order of Christ."
Is the Jehovah's Witness religion Christian?
by Zagor Almanah 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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NewChapter
NC, I don't like telling anyone that says they are Christian that they are not a Christian.
Of course you don't . . . but . . .
But doctrinally I cannot see how one can be a Christian when they refuse communion, refuse to be known as a witness of Jesus, refuse to believe in His Lordship, and refuse to worship Him.
Perhaps they just understand those scriptures differently than you do-----but you're right. Now comes the Devil . . .
That being said, I could be wrong. They do believe that Jesus is the son of God. However, as has been pointed out, so does the Devil. If He has offered the free gift of salvation by grace, and they refuse to go to Him to take it, then can they be said to be saved?
Well perhaps they do think they go to him. Sounds like you object to the way they do so----cuz your definition is correct and your scriptural understanding is correct, you should tell them that.
Jesus said that belief in God wasn't what led to eternal life anyway. People have to TAKE the gift. John 5:39,40 speaks to those that refuse to go directly to Jesus to take that free gift. So if you are refusing to do what Jesus asks you to do for salvation, can you be said to be a Christian?
I don't know? Apparently you have the exact right definition. People should check with you.
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Cold Steel
The JW, the Mormon, and the Bahai all have different definitions of WHO Jesus is and WHO God is...these definitions are different from each other and different from the orthodox. If it doesn't make much difference what you believe about the One who saves you, then why would the apostle Paul bother to try and correct erroneous BELIEF?
Very well said. What troubles me is when someone not only condemns the doctrines of other Christians, but then puts them on a greased slide to Hell. To my understanding, Hell is not vindictive, but remedial, and in many ways you're the harshest judge of yourself. This is reflected in countless near death experiences, and while God wishes us to be one in thought and doctrine, eternal hellfire isn't the penalty for believing false doctrine. We've got more than just a handful of Christian doctors who can't agree on what the apostle Paul was trying to say when he offered his corrections.
What we believe about God and Jesus IS important...it unites us where differing beliefs have a tendency to cause division.
Yes, and if we agree that Jesus is the Christ, the author of our salvation, and that He is the only begotten Son of the Father and that He was resurrected and is the firstfruits of them who slept. All else is open to question, at least as others see it. The "traditional" concept of Hell is that one burns forever and is never consumed, and that the righteous of the earth are condemned there because of circumstance. What we do for others has more to do with where we end up after death. People can be taught about Christ after death and before the resurrection, but those who worship money, success, power and prestige in this life are going to find it far more difficult to find Eternal Life than those who live in religious confusion, but try to serve others.
When Jesus is called Father it does not mean that he is Jehovah, because Adam is also father. Because Jesus replaced, not Jehovah as Father but Jesus replaced Adam as father, for Christians. But still Jehovah is the Greatest Father. ... logically how could Jesus be at the same time both Son of God and the the Father God and Jehovah?
Where do you find in scripture that God the Father is Jehovah? How do you know He is not the Son? Is He not the great intercessor between the Father and Mankind? Are not His titles in the Old Testament the same titles of Jesus in the New? The prophets described Jehovah as the Great Judge of Mankind, yet John says the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son (John 5:22). If one reads his vision on Patmos, it's pretty clear that Jesus and Jehovah are the same. And if you'll read Psalms 110:1-2, David writes: "The Lord saith unto MY LORD, sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
Who is David's Lord?
Is it not Jehovah, the Great I Am? Here, one God is speaking to another, and it's the Father speaking to Jehovah. When Jesus told the Jews, "Before Abraham was I Am," why did the Jews go into a frenzy of wrath, to the point they wanted to stone Him?? This passage could mean that before Abraham existed, He existed, but that wouldn't have pushed the Jews into such a commotion. It also could mean that in meeting Abraham, He was the I Am. Now that would have done it! And when we have one verse that can be interpreted two different ways, one has to look at the context and the reaction of the hearers. Not whether it supports your theology.
In Genesis 1, it's clear there were numerous dieties involved. "Let US make man in OUR image...." "Man has become as one of US, knowing good from evil." "Let US go down...." (to see the great tower). When Adam and Eve sinned, the Father could no more communicate with mankind directly. An intercessor was needed. And no text tells us that in the beginning, Jehovah created the Heavens and the Earth; but rather, it was "Eloheim" ("Gods"). The Father and the Son are united, being ONE in purpose, not not one in essence; and we know that the Word of God, who was Jehovah, was the Creator (John 1:1). So again, why do JWs insist that Jehovah is the Father?
One last point. Read Genesis 8 where Jehovah appears to Abraham in the plain of Mamre as three men. Why three? These were certainly angels, acting through a divine investiture of authority, because they are the same who went to Sodom and to Lot. That there were three of them were symbolic of the Godhead, for they all spoke as one. They also ate a meal with Abraham, so they couldn't have been spirits, but men "sent" of God (which is what "angel" means). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all one and speak as one, all without being physically one. The Son is the Intercessor and is the God of Israel, the one who spoke face to face with Moses and was the great I Am who appeared to Abraham.
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myelaine
dear Kosonen...
the JW "theologians" have misconstrued the form of the Godhead and perceive Jehovah as the Father (only). The trinity doctrine provides for the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit being Jehovah.
This can be shown by the scripture that you have quoted...otherwise both God the Father and Jesus the Son as well as the apostle paul have been dishonest. The scripture that you quoted says that Jehovah (whom you say is the Father only) is the redeemer...and Jesus affirms that He is the redeemer...and the scriptures say that the same Spirit (Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ) that raised Jesus from the dead will also redeem from death BY giving life to our mortal bodies. romans 8:9-11...if you believe that the bible is a source for the truth about God then do you see how these references to scripture need to be reconciled because we KNOW that there is only ONE true God?...that is what the trinity doctrine does. the JW theology leaves the questions that these and many other references in scripture generate...unresolved.
you are somewhat right when you say: "Jesus replaced Adam as father for christians." Jesus didn't replace adam as father, we are still of adam and born in sin because we are human. Jesus is Father of the NEW creation (2 cor 5:17)...by the Spirit we cry out, "ABBA Father" (romans 8:15)...
we KNOW that Jehovah said this:
"The LORD of hosts, Him you shall hallow;
Let Him be your fear,
And let Him be your dread.
He will be as a sanctuary,
But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel, As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
And many among them shall stumble;
They shall fall and be broken,
Be snared and taken.”Bind up the testimony,
Seal the law among my disciples.
And I will wait on the Lord ,
Who hides His face from the house of Jacob;
And I will hope in Him.
Here am I and the children whom the Lord has given me!
We are for signs and wonders in Israel From the Lord of hosts,
Who dwells in Mount Zion. isaiah 8:13-18...Jesus is the stone of stumbling, it was Jesus and what He taught about WHO He was that became the snare and trap for the pharisees (john 8:19, 24) and it is Jesus who is the Father of many children of the NEW creation...BUT, as you can see, it is Jehovah (LORD) speaking in this scripture... Jesus doesn't "replace" the Father that the JW calls Jehovah. Jehovah is the exponent of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit being the ONE true God.
you said: "I draw a logic conclusion between the confusion in the second and the third centry among christians that lead to the Nicean Creed and what the apostles and even Jesus forewarned about."...How IS it logical to you that satan is able to thwart Jesus, the apostles, all the people who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the whole plan of God for the church by infiltrating and dislodging the truth by means of "imposters" within a few hundred years...and then THAT church of "imposters" and the message it preached grew and covered the whole earth?...Who do YOU ascribe Almightiness to with your "logic"?
love michelle
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myelaine
dear Cold Steel...
you said: " What troubles me is when someone not only condemns the doctrines of other Christians, but then puts them on a greased slide to Hell. To my understanding, Hell is not vindictive, but remedial,"
I don't know if you are talking to me specifically because I haven't put anyone on a "greased slide to hell". Jesus was the one who expounded on hell and the merits of HIS sacrifice in order to AVOID it. As to my mentioning OTHER faiths...they are just that. Neither the JW's, the mormons nor the bahai's have the bible as their sole source for doctrine. They have added to, and in the case of the JW's and bahai's, taken away from the message of salvation for all who would believe (john 8:24) found in the bible.
JW's proclaim that Jesus is the Mediator for the F&DS only and that the rank and file themselves are granted mediation through the F&DS. The bahai's don't call themselves christian as that faith group is comprised of many different faiths under the direction of their own GB who follow the teachings of their founder whom they perceive to be the returned spirit of Christ in the person of a persian man named baha'u'llah(1817-1892). the mormons, as you know, believe that the bible speaks of the God of THIS planet and that there are MANY other gods ruling on many other planets and that male adherents are in training to become one of those many OTHER gods...to the mormon, Jehovah is a true God as much as the male adherent will be a true god some day too.
as to leading "godly" lives, there is no question that each individual JW, bahai, and mormon is encouraged to do just that. but...the bible states that in the apostasy of the last days, as well as the willfully wicked, there will be those having a form of godliness but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.(2 timothy 3:1-8)...notice vs. 8...these resist THE truth and are disapproved concerning THE faith. it seems that paul believes and teaches that disapproved is disapproved...in the same way that sin is missing the mark whether by an inch or a mile. these people are estranged...how do YOU explain that a person can be estranged from THE truth of THE christian faith yet at the same time BE a christian?
where do you get your understanding that hell is remedial and that people will be released?...that idea is similar to the catholic doctrine of purgatory that can be drawn from the words of Jesus in luke 16:19-31, which I think is picturing the intermediate "staging area" after death where the righteous and the unrighteous go before the resurrection of the just and the unjust (daniel 12:2) but even in daniel 12:3 there seems to be a need for those resurrected to turn TO righteousness and the NT identifies the only means of achieving that "state" of being righteous before God is through the mediation of Jesus Christ...being washed clean by the blood of the Lamb. Our own righteousness being as filthy rags.
love michelle
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Kosonen
Myelaine, I understand that you are a very loving person. But too much love makes a person blind to logic. But you are not the only person enfatuated with Jesus. Nice that you love Jesus. But you are so blinded by this enfatuation, that you are unable to see the truth. It is just as when people a fall in love. The rose colored eyeglasses don't let to see the truth.
Here follows verses against trinity and that Jesus took the place of Adam.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 27 For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him. 28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.
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cantleave
Hmmm! The above debate just goes to prove you can make the bible say whaever you like!
Best grow up and stop living your lives by words written 1000's of years ago by uneducated men.
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NewChapter
Our own righteousness being as filthy rags.
Sad and disturbing. In fact, this is so horrible, I could never say such a thing to my child. In many ways, this notion is even worse than all that there smiting. But somehow this translates in some brains as love and happiness. I just find it incredibly sad. I wish I could erase it, but I can't.
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Kosonen
myelaine Michelle hi again,
Now ill try to give a logical explanation to your question:
."...How IS it logical to you that satan is able to thwart Jesus, the apostles, all the people who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the whole plan of God for the church by infiltrating and dislodging the truth by means of "imposters" within a few hundred years...and then THAT church of "imposters" and the message it preached grew and covered the whole earth?...Who do YOU ascribe Almightiness to with your "logic"?
In that way evil has been conquered by evil. Not so bad after all. The pagans where subdued by violent "christians". The pagans lost their religion and where forced to listen to at least some teachings of Christ. And as a result they became more civilized. The end justifies the means could be said. But of course these violent "christians" believers in trinity did not gain Gods approval. But they prepared the field for coming generations.
It's as it was when Jesus said: 37 For in this case the saying is true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’ 38 I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored and you have entered into their labor.” John 4:37,38
And it's like Judas Iskariot, he fullfilled his role, but it was of no benefit for himself. Jesus told that it had been better for him not to have been born, the son of destruction.
And that "imposters" preach Christ does not worry apostle Paul, because he said:
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 the one do it of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel;
17 but the other proclaim Christ of faction, not sincerely, thinking to raise up affliction for me in my bonds.
18 What then? only that in every way, whether in pretence or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and therein I rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
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Sulla
Just bad theology, Kosonen. If the Christians were wrong in Nicea, then the size of the error was such that there was no Church left to correct it. The most the JWs could say is that the Church blew up way back when as an historical curiosity. There is no possible way that the Church could go out of existence and then simply re-appear: it isn't numerically identical, it isn't the same Church Jesus established.
Of course, this is basically what the JWs teach now, as I understand the new teaching: there wasn't any Church at all for a couple thousand years until the JWs re-established it. That isn't a coherent statement when they make it, neither is it coherent when you do.