by Terry 143 Replies latest watchtower bible
In an attemp to break the first commandment LOL, the Deity can not be conceived by finite mortal minds. If I take scripture as my reference point the Deity can only be revealed and can also be personal. Some have said that without a creation there would be no need for God to have the Eternal Logos and Eternal Spirit, however Divine Love can not exist in isolation.
Shalom
thank you all. It is interesting that what it means "to be" GOD ----as contrasted to what it means "to be" human would focus now on TIME or the time experience of these two entities/concepts. Also,
some of us here are trying to find or establish a better and new way to have the common human thirst for elevated feelings, thought fulfilled. Kepplers, Newtons and Einsteins religious inclinations were discussed here on this forum and that is a good hook both into science and the divine.
In my thought experiments I found it helpfull to work with my mind by limiting my 3d space picture to a plane 2 dimension only and substituting TIME for the missing 3rd.
That leaves the expanding universe looking like a balloon, expanding out of the point blank big bang singularity full of energy.
In this model, the emptiness surrounding the starting point of this expanding sphere / membrane that we flatlanders inhabit IS the dimension of TIME.
THis TIME is HUGE and OLD
The model balloon expands into time
The expansion is due to the dynamic energy of the matter all moving in that curved skin, membrane that is tensioned by gravity. Any movement at all will generate a centrifugal force driving the expansion, because a space-line describes a circle or rather spiral back into the past.
the space dimensions and Matter it contain moves in the direction of the radius into the future. The radius aligns with the arrow of time, the movement energy driven. It is
ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that in this model, time is STATIONARY and space and its content are expanding, therefore moving THROUGH time. Matter is moving non-stop through time since the big bang. (the faster through space the slower through time) (the greater the gravity the slower through time)
In this picture, time existed BEFORE the big bang, as it must. Even for the anti-matter matter imbalance model of the vaccuum fluctuation beginnig idea.
For creationist this eternal-unending unlimited time is also the property and domain of the creator, who is eternal, still fills time in the past, already fills time in the future outside that expanding balloon.It is
ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that a creator filling that eternal time "would find Time to start up our universe" (and energy) send it moving through the static time that is his abode, his property.
This model implies that the creator is old, filling all of time, since he is thought to be eternal, butalso
Larger than the universe, infinitely Large. Of course he was larger than the BB singularity, and always will be outside that expanding membrane of ours. We know that
ENTIRELY POSSIBLE build his house, but the universe is in size more like a doll house for the creator, made for his children. so:
The arrow of time is the direction SIGN on the one-way street for space and its content to follow out of the pit of creation into future time. a street that is stationary, the matter of fact moving out into the future driven by energy.
If its a question of time, "to be" god means to BE, to totally fill eternal, stationary time. it means "to be" human to MOVE through stationary time as long as genetics heritage entropy allows it.
Terrii, TIME is real, we can measure it, it is the one way street we move on - into the future. Like most motorcycles, no reverse gear. you have to keep moving to keep your balance.
peace.
ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that a creator filling that eternal time "would find Time to start up our universe" (and energy) send it moving through the static time that is his abode, his property.
Eternal time is just something made up to fill the gap of "I don't know what the f*ck I am talking about" by people making claims about invisible, silent, undetecble creatures.
Carl Sagan's explanation of higher dimensions, above the ones we inhabit, namely time and space, is awe inspiringly simple - he sure was gifted.
Search YouTube for - sagan tesseract
Apparently even when we get at satellite distance from earth, time is significantly changed - hence frequent (daily) adjustments in GPS positioning systems.
fernando thank you for the help. you said "--at satellite distance time is changed-- " right> because the acceleration, energy to put it out there. there greater speed through space it needs to stay up there, looking at the clock, the clock is slower. push it to c and the clock will stop. but that clock measures MOVEMENT through time at that velocity and location. Time itself for the universe is unchanged. Its not "time" that has changed but the movement through time if you will. Think in this model re "eternal stationary time" as cars going down on a one -way highway at different speeds. its not the highway that has different speeds for different cars. The faster you go in space, the slower you go in time. some researchers want to get into the pre Big Bang the vaccuum energy fluctuation. the surmise that the vaccuum with that balanced matter=antimatter had a time potential to have it fluctuate. isert fluctuation= creator and you have pre-big bang-time.
satellites orbit also in reduced gravity which effects their MOVEMENT THRough time.peace to you. help me learn.
I just read all 7 pages from beginning to end (whew!!!). While I'm intimidated by the incredible knowledge and deep thoughts of many of you, I'm going to go ahead and throw in my 2 cents (two coins of very little value).
It seems to me that all of this discussion revolves around what existed at the beginning?
The premise is that God has no beginning, while all other things do have a beginning. Everything we know has a beginning and end. Without a beginning and an end, our lives are quite meaningless and without point.
We tend to associate all "things" with this linear type of thinking. That's all I'm personally capable of.
So if all "things" and time have a beginning but God does not, then at some point there was only God existing in a vacuum alone (whether part of a triune godhead or not). So that begs the questions why did he see the need to create anything? What did he create these things out of? It also lends credence to the OP's original musings of His relative knowledge, love, wisdom, and power.
If God has a beginning, then who began Him?
I'm not sure our brains are capable of conceiving beyond the rational linear thinking, putting aside concepts of beginning and end.
There are so many implications to these ponderings. If God does exist and had no beginning then created the vast universe and created life on this tiny speck of a planet, why would we conclude that we are anything more than a "hobby" a form of entertainment to God or an experiment? I liken it to a scientist who starts out with a hypothesis and then begins an experiment with various control samples and variables and seeks answers. His premise in the beginning is a desire to succeed but expects failure. Its from these failures that he takes notes and makes improvements. The aim is to gain as much knowledge as possible, to amass information. Perhaps that all we are to God. He steps away to observe how other experiments and studies are doing and then check back from time-to-time, adding different variables to the equation to see what will happen. I could see us as nothing more than a source of entertainment and an experimant, perhaps not the first of this kind.
On the otherhand, if God does not exist, the ponderings are truly beyond grasp yet they are also without limitation, making anything eventually possible and humans as potential masters of the universe as the only known thinking and devising creatures with an actual concept of time.
I hope I'm not off topic, I kind of get on a run and tyoe and think at the same time. Be gentle in your replies, I'm truly a babe in scientific matters and philosophy as well. But this topic so intrigues me I don't want it to end.
Terri started this topic out as a "thought experiment" and they work well, since Albert too started a new way of looking at Physics that way.
Since we are confronted with the existence, the reality of the cosmos, that is where we have to look to understand what it means "to be" God. To me that means a creator, a worker, not what ENTIRELY POSSIBLE calls "silent invisible creatures" or golden calfs or talking snakes.
Jeremiah 18:-- ', your proposition, question about an "experimentor god" merits thought, we can relate to the idea of a creator, a researcher because we love to do it, when we have
time and energy to spare. Does the Creator have time and energy to spare? yes, IF we consider the possibility that he must be more than 50 billion light years big and old .
What do WE do when we have time and energy to spare?--- hobbies and play, family time.
Play? ball games: all kinds, even "Cricket on the beach"* usually it involves getting a ball to move at the right time at the right velocity into the right place. so look at the universe. : It is full of balls moving at the right time and velocity in the right location. The trick was to establish the rules, make the balls and get it started ( the 3 body problem to the nth degree). its fun to play ball, so why not for a creator?
build? some of our building is usefull, but there also hobbies, compulsory building of stamp collections etc. The architecture that is embodied in Music. great pleasure is derived from building. the doing. and the enjoyment of the product. fun to build, building for fun, why not for a creator
family, is it not good to have "overlapping generations"** visiting parents, chidren, sharing, being able to care a for a newborn , even if in teenage years it becomes a rebellious competitor? if its for us an intense near-religious experience, why not for a creator?
* another nice, current topic ** not the "overlapping generation" copy-righted by WBTS inc.
Most participant here come from a background of failed bible study, now even confronted with the realisation that the bible is a fable, a tale. but
some of our thoughts are molded by these bible-based, possibly true, concepts of God:
God is eternal, older than his creation. 1 Tim 1:17 Gen 1:1
God is larger than his creation, 1 King 8:27; 2Chr.2:6 and 6:18 Big Bang had zero dimension, anything is bigger than 0
God is not moving through time, unlike us sundial watchers. James 1:17
its good to be alive and have your thoughts.
peace.
Prologos: I believe you got the entire gist of what I was saying. It is kind of a cool thought to ponder.
I fail to see how God can meaningfully BE a god if all there is IS god.
Division of unity makes a mockery of unity, doesn't it? Supreme Being implies more supreme THAN other beings.
From the Opening Paragraph I'm deconstructing the MEANING we attribute to god as GOD.
By examining the USE of terms in a natural setting I thought I exposed the emptiness of mere absolutes in application.
But, I suppose I've failed to communicate that adequately.
Sort of like Beethoven writing the 9th Symphony while being totally deaf himself.
