by Simon 100 Replies latest social humour
Why do folks need to put crosses at the top of what are otherwise very beautiful mountains? I look at the cross the same way that I look at the swastika. It's offensive.
Jesus, if he actually exists/existed, would probably not have liked to see god's creation tarnished with such an ugly image.
I look at the cross the same way that I look at the swastika. It's offensive.
Why? What does it do to you personally? I understand disliking the disruption of natural beauty, but why liken it to the swastika? The swastika is not even Nazi in origin. It's one of the oldest symbols we know of. I obviously know why the swastika would be offensive. But why the cross?
Why the cross? Defiling a mountain? Just wanting to look at nature and seeing a billboard? The things that have been done and are being done behind the shadow of that symbol? How do you think a homosexual feels when looking at a cross on a mountaintop when he or she had dealt with his or her rights being refused by those that love that cross? How do you think a Muslim feels when wanting to look at nature and having to look at that cross? A pagan? A woman who has had her choices taken away?
The cross is a very offensive symbol to some, and there is no reason to be mucking up nature, which should belong to all, with a commercial.
I agree that it can be an eyesore when placed in certain places.
How do you think a homosexual feels when looking at a cross on a mountaintop when he or she had dealt with his or her rights being refused by those that love that cross?
Many homosexuals love what the cross stands for. (http://www.rainbowchristians.com/) It's not Christianity that took away their rights. It was the radical people. Muslims? I welcome their images! I don't agree at all with Islam, but I understand they do and have the right to express their religion. It's not Islam that terrorizes people, it was the radical people. A pagan? I welcome their images too. I don't agree with them, but I don't have to. Freedom of religion is what it's about. Atheist images or billboards? Bring em on. Why hide what people really think?
Tolerance should be what we all are striving for. Not being OFFENDED at merely looking at something that we don't like, believe in, or agree with. It's the lack of tolerance that causes atheists to want to remove nativity scenes from public places and it's the lack of tolerance that cause Christians to set things on fire.
It's the lack of tolerance that causes atheists to want to remove nativity scenes from public places
Ahem, allow me to speak, as an atheist, because I don't think you have this figured out.
This is not about tolerance, for the atheists I know. This is about a principle. I don't mind if I see a nativity on private property. Some can be quite pretty. I don't get angry when I see them. I tolerate them quite well, thank you very much.
Yet there is a principle of separation of Church and State that is violated all the time. It is a constant struggle. Those of us that recognize that our government was meant to be secular, and those that tell an alternative history claiming that America is a Christian nation. (I'm obviously speaking as an Atheist AND an American--other countries may have different struggles). Why should the Pagan or the Atheist have to tolerate their town hall favoring one religion over the other? Is that not indicative of an overall attitude? My Wiccan friend lives in a city with a mayor that wants to adopt the slogan, Most Christian City In The Nation. Now why should she tolerate that? Does that make her angry when carolers knock on her door? Of course not.
It's not the place of government to be putting up religious symbols. It is not intolerance to demand they follow the Constitution. It has been reduced to that---oh-look at the petty atheists---getting all upset about a cross. It's not the cross that is upsetting. It is the principle that says a tolerant government is also a secular government. One should not influence the other.
So reduce it to the ridiculous if you like. But the issue is bigger and more complex. It is not the nativity scene that is offensive but the context. I am not offended by cuss words, however if I saw a pre-school teacher using them when addressing the children, I would take issue. Would that make me intolerant? I don't think so. Could it be reduced to me just being a priss that doesn't like bad language? Certainly. If that's the spin a person wants to give it.
Yet there is a principle of separation of Church and State that is violated all the time.
Have you been to the captial? I was shocked by the amount of religious presense and influence in our government. Thomas Jefferson's Bible was on display when i visited. There has NEVER been a true separation of church and state. Before removing the nativity scenes and getting upset at the Christians for displaying them, maybe first change the flag salute and its reference to God. Change the money and it's reference to God. You'll need to go back into the constitution and remove the whole part of men being CREATED equal while you're at it.
No, religion has been a part of American politics since its inception. What separation of church and state REALLY means and SHOULD mean is that policy should not reflect a particular religious belief. I support this separation of church and state. I don't wish to enforce people to believe the way that I do. But the majority of people ARE Christians in the United States. If the majority were Muslims, I would expect and support some form of religious items in public places including government buildings.
I am not offended by cuss words, however if I saw a pre-school teacher using them when addressing the children, I would take issue. Would that make me intolerant? I don't think so.
The problem with this argument is that this is a violation of a social norm. Expressing your beliefs or non beliefs does not violate our culture. It's an expression of what our culture (the majority of it) is.
BTW, I am not upset at atheists wanting to remove nativity scenes, ten commandments, etc from government property. I understand your POV, because it doesn't represent everyone. But there is very little that will always represent everyone.
first change the flag salute and its reference to God. Change the money and it's reference to God.
Working on it. Both references are relatively new. As far as displaying Jefferson's bible, that is history, and I don't think many would see a problem with it. There will always be some intermingling, as we have a Christian culture, but quite a bit of it can be cleaned up. CREATOR was common terminology, and actually didn't reference Christianity, so-------------
One step at a time. Each will work on their particular issue. One person may be concerned about town halls, and another group be concerned about 'under god'. You can't really tell people which battle you think is more appropriate and which they will choose to fight, because you want to prioritize them for others.
We are a country that has often allowed the majority to oppress the minority---be we've gotten better and will continue to fight our battles.
Christianity has a bloody history, and overall, I deem it to be the equivalent of a cancerous tumor to our society. To me, the cross symbolizes the bloodshed Christianity is responsible for, and therefore, to me, it's the equivalent of a swastika, as used in the Nazi sense.
To me, the cross symbolizes the bloodshed Christianity
Did Christianity teach the need to kill others? Or was it people that distorted Christianity? The American flag is probably offensive to many that have suffered because of America. Should they hate America and Americans because of what some people did? (i.e dropping the bomb on Hiroshima?)
