Does God's foreknowledge take away from free will?

by Christ Alone 317 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Christ Alone

  If God chose not to know something, would he be God?

  Me: Will I choose to go to Safeway or Frys?

  God: I don't know...

  Nope, it doesn't work. Saying that He chooses not to know is taking away His being God. Can God know all choices and all possible choices and the implications of each one while allowing us to choose? I think this is closer to the truth. It's slippery ground to say that God chooses not to know certain things. Why would he CHOOSE not to know?

  Some don't like the idea of God's omniscience. But that doesn't change if He is or not.
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  sizemik

  Some don't like the idea of God's omniscience. But that doesn't change if He is or not. . . . CA

  I like the idea of God's omniscience, and agree he wouldn't be God without it.

  And while it may not prove or disprove his existence, it reveals enough about his character, for me to utterly reject him, whether real or not.
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  EntirelyPossible

  Can God know all choices and all possible choices and the implications of each one while allowing us to choose? I think this is closer to the truth.

  That's not omniscience, that's the as me knowing all of the possible outcomes of a throw of the dice. Knowing which specific outcome will happen, every time, all the time....that would be something.

  Can God do that?

  Some don't like the idea of God's omniscience. But that doesn't change if He is or not.

  In what way is God omniscienct? Does he know what I will eat for lunch tomorrow? Did he know it a month ago? A year ago? A decade ago? Before I was born?
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  PSacramento

  If God knew (or could have known) in advance of Adams action, then Adam had no choice - thus, no free will.

  Adam would have not had free will if God infulenced His choices, He didn't.

  The concept of free will (without God's foreknowledge) is necessary to justify God's action in condemning humans to death.

  God knew that Adam and Eve would fall, so He did what anyone being with foreknowledge would do WITHOU effecting free will:

  He told them NOT to do it and what would happen if they did BUT He did NOT stop them from doing.

  We have divine foreknowledge - God knowing that they would break the rule.

  We have Man's free will: After God told them not to and what would happen if they did, they do it anyway.

  Interfrence by God to effect free will, that would have compromised Adam and Eve;s free will to choose and God didn't do that.

  So we do have forknowledge AND free will and there is no conflict.
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  OnTheWayOut

  Limiting the application of knowing what Adam would do to just Adam is the problem.

  Adam would sin, God didn't stop it, Adam sinned. That's just the beginning. What people are really talking about here is God knowing that billions of babies would be born to die horribly or suffer birth defects or be beaten and raped because God had this little test for Adam and He already knew the outcome. God created Adam with the programming that Adam believed he had free will, but knew that the creation would fail. So God created suffering for billions of children.

  To many, that is just as valid as putting the blame on Adam. If God knew it would happen, then He didn't stop it. If you knew your children would die in an accident, you would not send them on their way that day to be part of that accident.
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  caliber

  Interfrence by God to effect free will, that would have compromised Adam and Eve;s free will to choose and God didn't do that.

  So we do have forknowledge AND free will and there is no conflict

  .

  Seems like a very logical and simple conclusion to me. If a health professional gives you a program

  to follow and tells you all the ill effects if you refuse to follow the program , has he taken away your free will ?

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  Did she lose weight out of unreasonable fear instilled in her that it could cause health issues ?
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  PSacramento

  Adam would sin, God didn't stop it, Adam sinned. That's just the beginning. What people are really talking about here is God knowing that billions of babies would be born to die horribly or suffer birth defects or be beaten and raped because God had this little test for Adam and He already knew the outcome. God created Adam with the programming that Adam believed he had free will, but knew that the creation would fail. So God created suffering for billions of children.

  At best you can say that God "allowed" that billions would suffer because He chose NOT to interfer. I don't think you can say God created suffering ( other than that which God is directly involved in).

  To many, that is just as valid as putting the blame on Adam. If God knew it would happen, then He didn't stop it. If you knew your children would die in an accident, you would not send them on their way that day to be part of that accident.

  I don't think we can view "death" that way, I mean, IF we are putting ourselves in "God's shoes" then we would know that death is just another state of existence and that death, while painful for mortals, is not like that for a being that KNOWS it is not "the end", BUT for for argument sake, lets say that death was final then Yes, I would do soemthing BUT then I would NOT be allowing free will and I would be controlling the lives and decisions of my creation, right?
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  THE GLADIATOR

  PSacramento you come across as sincere and attempt to explain God and put him in the best possible light. Unfortunately such honesty could ultimately lead you to conclusions that you would rather not arrive at.

  Keeping faith alive usually requires the ability to shut out unwelcome information and pursue a predefined goal. Anyhow I enjoy your comments and appreciate your patience and reasonableness.
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  PSacramento

  PSacramento

  you come across as sincere and attempt to explain God and put him in the best possible light. Unfortunately such honesty could ultimately lead you to conclusions that you would rather not arrive at.

  I want to make it clear that I am NOT trying to explain God or put Him in the best possibel light, I don't think ANYONE can explain God, the best we can do is explain why WE viewed God a certain way and how we reconcile and rationalize the world we live in.

  What we are discussing here is really a human doctrine, ( 2 actually - Omniscience and predestination) and man's attempt to know God and put Him 'down here" with Us.

  The honest truth is that we do NOT know IF God is all knowing or now and to what degree He is or isn't or if God does effect "free will" or even if there is such a thing as "free will".
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  THE GLADIATOR

  "What we are discussing here is really a human doctrine, ( 2 actually - Omniscience and predestination) and man's attempt to know God and put Him 'down here" with Us."

  Yes I get that. The reason I no longer get into hypothetical debates is that I do not believe there is an answer to most questions. We can only speculate from our limited human standpoint. We are like ants trying to understand or comprehend an invisible elephant.