Faith... and Trust: The Same Things?

by AGuest 452 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  PSacramento

  See, I don't think that is the point. You can PROVE red exists without seeing or experiencing it. None of us can see light in the extreme wavelengths yet we can prove it exists.

  But can you KNOW red with experiencing it?

  My point was if the experience of god is evidense of god, the same must go for napoleon experience.

  The experience of God is not evidence of God, the experience of God is how one comes to know God.

  Red would exist if nobody had seen it, like the three flavors of quarks did in the fourties.

  And so does God, for some.

  Of course this continues back to faith and trust, we can't get around that part because we are dealing with the immaterial.

  The point is that, for some, the expereince of KNOWING God is so "concrete" that it is equivelent for them as something material is for someone else.

  That is when faith and trust become ONE I think.

  That it is still subjective is a given though.
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  bohm

  Okey, so what this boil down to is experience of god is not evidence of god, but experience of knowing god is evidence for god?
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  EntirelyPossible

  But can you KNOW red with experiencing it?

  Again, define "know". Know it like an astronomer? Like a physicist? Like an interior decorator? Like a paint manufacturer?

  And so does God, for some.

  No, not at all. The quarks existed all the same, even when NO ONE knew about them, they are helping you to exists. God has yet to be proven to exist anywhere. Indeed, quarks were looked for because they were mathematically predicted. Not so for God.

  Of course this continues back to faith and trust, we can't get around that part because we are dealing with the immaterial

  Define what you mean by immaterial.

  The point is that, for some, the expereince of KNOWING God is so "concrete" that it is equivelent for them as something material is for someone else.

  So were the voices for Son of Sam.
• 

  PSacramento

  Okey, so what this boil down to is experience of god is not evidence of god, but experience of knowing god is evidence for god?

  No, the evidence, if we wanna use that word, would be the effects of knowing God.

  How does a person that claims they know God act and live and behave?

  IF that person claims to know a God that is Love and compassion, is that person THAT way? how were they before?

  When dealing with something intangible and immaterial, we need to look for the effects right?

  If a person says they have faith in God and trust in God, how do they act?

  We can't expect to see material evidence of an immatterial thing, can we?
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  frankiespeakin

  The color red is a subjective experience not an objective one. It is a interpetation of one our five senses. Our eyes focus the light rays on the retina it then makes some corresponding signals that find it way to the brain the brain then goes through it processing the information and gives some type of ghost in the machine a visual image that appears red.

  Light at a certain frequency apears to the ghost in the machine as red but the ghost in my machine's red may not look the same as the ghost in your machine's red.

  The same thing can be said about music. You make the music in your perception of it. An earthworm doesn't hear the music we can. Everything we view about the world we make in our psyche. What appears to be out there is really inside us, because it is processed information with the projected appearence to ourselves another mental construct.
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  PSacramento

  So were the voices for Son of Sam.

  And that really is THE issue isn't?

  More than anything else is the concern about "voices".

  Thing is that for many believers there is no voice (there are never voices by the way) at all, they know God in a far deeper way perhaps.

  In such a deep and concrete way for them that they do indeed put faith and trust in Him.
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  EntirelyPossible

  How does a person that claims they know God act and live and behave?

  

  IF that person claims to know a God that is Love and compassion, is that person THAT way? how were they before?

  

  When dealing with something intangible and immaterial, we need to look for the effects right?

  We can't expect to see material evidence of an immatterial thing, can we?

  Please define immaterial.
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  EntirelyPossible

  And that really is THE issue isn't?

  More than anything else is the concern about "voices".

  Nope. It's the claim about knowing these things and then acting the way people do with that utter certainty that they know exactly what god wants. And usually it's something pretty shitty for the rest of us. <==== THAT is the issue.

  
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  PSacramento

  Immaterial:	not formed of matter; incorporeal; spiritual
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  EntirelyPossible

  We can't expect to see material evidence of an immatterial thing, can we?

  OK, so, using that definition, not made of matter, energy is immaterial, yet you can see it AND feel its effects. Incorporeal doesn't work either, because people claim to see incorporeal things all the time, that would be an effect. Spiritual can't be right EITHER because, if God is real, it is affecting people's brains, something that can be seen on an fMRI when people think God is with them (the exact same effect can be seen when someone who likes sports thinks about an awesome game, too).

  So, if God is immaterial, then he can't be causing any of these things. If he isn't immaterial, then we should be able to start testing for him in an objective way.