by sabastious 120 Replies latest jw friends
I have posted this before, but it bears repeating:
One thing that Ed Dunlap told me was that he really felt bad about the JW religion because they were so horrible that they pretty much spoiled all religion for most of the people who left the JWs.
I think there is a measure of truth in that - I personally cannot look at any of the religions the same way after the JWs.
Chariklo I don't think that theory works. JWs have terrible critical thinking skills, its beaten out of us especially if we are brought up in the borg.
We are taught that independent thinking - as if there was another sort - is a sin. They are skilled at building beliefs on selective evidence and ignoring everything to the contrary.
They also have a mistrust of science, do you remember the science-bashing public talk outline?
By the way the Higgs-Boson particle has absolutely nothing to do with god. It was called the god particle as an abbreviation of "goddamned particle" when it was proving difficult to find.
Sab, that's an interesting view on the actual dynamic that leads exjw's toward atheism.
I'd just like to expand a bit on one notion that you have mentioned---that we look to science to prove or disprove gods. That is quite incomplete. Science is only one factor that most of us consider, and yet we do discuss it a lot. This may be because so much of the bible has been debunked by science, so it flows naturally in the conversation.
But other things that led me to the conclusion were history, other cultures, archeology, and a lot of issues surrounding prayer. The total lack of evidence that prayer statistically brings about better outcomes than no prayer. Sometimes you have to look a bit deeper and be critical of the studies, but it is important to avoid any psychosamatic effect.
I looked at the endless line of gods that have marched through history, their vast differences, their similarities, how other cultures relate morality.
So yeah, science plays a role, but it is only a piece of the puzzle, albeit a large one. In fact, I didn't even get serious about science until after I became an atheist. I've learned much more since that time, since I was free to look at it with no veil to blind me.
NC, would you say that what initially attracted you to the religion was that it appeared to be so rational? The "truth" has to be reasoned out, right? Everybody wants to know the truth, there is something in us that beckons for knowledge and understanding. It starts out with survival, but when does it kick into a gear that transcends even survival?
Neil deGrasse Tyson said that if he had to pick a way to die it would be getting sucked into a black whole. He described what Science says would happen to his body and it sounded to me that it would be extremely painful. I asked myself why would he want that? Well, if he did indeed get sucked into a black whole, there would be a lot new data to be taken from it. Therefore, imo, he's saying that if he had to die, he'd like it to be for Science and it's cutting edge. I think that's awesome and it shows why Tyson is a mordern visionary as well as a great scientist. With all great things in this world there is the real deal and there are the frauds. The Watchtower are frauds, Neil deGrasse Tyson is the real deal.
-Sab
sabastious - "...The Jehovah's Witnesses follow the rationale of the Governing Body..."
The GB has a rationale???
james_woods - "I personally cannot look at any of the religions the same way after the JWs."
Ditto; the WTS did such an effective job discrediting organized religion with me, that I have virtually zero desire to lean towards any faith, these days.
james_woods - "Ed Dunlap told me was that he really felt bad about the JW religion because they were so horrible that they pretty much spoiled all religion for most of the people who left the JWs."
I'm almost positive that the WTS deliberately engineered that particular aspect of its ideology for that specific purpose; an "if we can't have 'em, at least no one else'll get 'em either" attitude.
Not that that makes we want to go to some other Church any time soon; I'm contrarian, but not that contrarian.
Sab, I'm not sure if this is answering your question, because I'm not sure I understand it as a question. But I'll throw this in there and hopefully advance the conversation.
I do agree that JW's are scolded for using 'independent' thinking, which is often critical thinking---when turned on THEM. However they have no problem when it is turned outside the org, and in a weird way, they did give me some unexpected skills. For instance, it was always appropriate to question and critically look at all other religions. I also remember a lot of 'counsel' about not taking everything at face value, and asking good questions. Again, it was understood that this 'counsel' would never be used on THEM.
So in a way, in that environment, I did manage to hone some critical thinking skills. A favorite thing of mine was to look at those sensational emails people would send warning people that men waited under their cars with knives to slash the tendons in their legs and disable them----or that it was an epidemic that a frantic man would approach a woman at the mall because his baby was sick, and she would toss caution to the wind and run out to help him, where there would be no baby and she would get raped. Or a personal favorite---people were putting syringes full of HIV infected blood on gas nozzles so that when the unexpected customer came along and squeezed the handle, they would get injected with the blood.
NOW, the thing that REALLY irritated me about these urban legends, is that they were often forwarded by a JW. I would rip them to pieces. Point out the flaws. Find the wonky stuff and send them back to the sender with my evidence that it was bullshit. There are no stories on the internet that this has happened even once. The letter states a rash of these crimes in California, yet is signed by a Florida deputy---from a department that does not exist. What city? What state? What mall? This is all left unsaid and untraceable.
The reason it irritated me that it was coming from fellow JWs, is that I thought we were being taught to question such nonsense. I don't know, maybe I was getting a different memo. I think what was really happening is that they were so sure this world was soooooo horrible, that this just confirmed their bias and they had little reason to question. I would tell them that there were enough real things to worry about without passing along fabricated stories.
It was that kind of thinking that led me to eventually put gods under the microscope. When I questioned the belief the same way I would question other stories, it fell apart. I saw no reason to go easy on God---if he is real, he can take it---so I gave myself full permission to consider the possbility and use critical thinking skills.
"If this wasn't the truth, then nothing in religion/the bible is". That's not supposed to be an accusation or a generalization.
This, to me, is like quitting video games because you were let down by a single game. Or quitting hunting because you got chased by a moose once. The thing about falling is that if you are not dead, you should get back up. The manner in which this takes place for an individual who has left a cult is remarkably personalized. We have believers and non believers who will take their ideas to the grave it would seem. Could this be because their whole life they believed they had the actual truth? They defended it as such and made incredible sacrifice for it. I think ex cult members serve as a good example of how important truth is to our species. It's so ingrained into our genetics that people can bet on it and make record profits. I know that I personally have a very big hole to fill after leaving the cult. But how deep that hole is and what it requires to be filled with is deeply personal and for many it's a private, and for all it's extremely emotional.
I think Science has some catching up to do on this. I say this because my government purports to be directed by Science. I have organizations like the EPA and the FDA that are allegedly acting in accordance with cutting edge Science. Why are there cults? Why is my food killing my teeth? Why do I have to deal with getting tempted with addictive substances in my own super market? What happens if I get depressed? My teeth will hurt? I will run up a medical bill? I wonder who is driving the bus sometimes.
-Sab
The GB has a rationale???
Yes, but they are hiding their methodology. They are actually occultists in denial I think.
-Sab
The GB has a rationale???
I think he is saying that as JW's, we used the GB as our source and rationalized everything in relation to what the GB said. Now as atheists, he is saying we use science in the same way that we used the GB as JW's. So in effect, our brains are working the same, but our focus has changed. However I think I have clarified that this is an incomplete understanding of what we really consider, and the oversimplification even makes it false.
It's a POV study. As JW's, the GB did have rationale.
Ditto; the WTS did such an effective job discrediting organized religion with me, that I have virtually zero desire to lean towards any faith, these days.
Exactly, and so Sab has made a valid point.
