Christ's 'silence' on slavery.

by tec 149 Replies latest jw friends

snare&racket

Tec two questions...
1) Thats a bit sneaky ...he is not silent on slavery at all...
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
2) Tec.... why do it?
Why TRY to defend the promotion of slavery by a god and then its reference without condemnation from his, earth born, god in flesh son..
It's painful watching you do it, you know better. Semantics and moral juggling is not required with simple truth. You are a wonderful person, let it go , you dont need it anymore. You are clearly more moral than your very own god and his son. The very same issue raised in the genesis account.
Do you dare to question gods authority to dictate GOOD and EVIL?
By making a square peg fit into a round hole...you are questioning him. He said slavery was ok and he decides... thats his message, that is the whole Adam and Eve story.
Please Tec, its boring, frustrating and sad.... let it go. Would you entertain for a moment a Muslim telling you of the justice and love of Allah as he supported the slaughter through spain or his plans at judgment when we will all stand naked before the sun and be near or far depending on sin, only to drown or live depending on our volume of fear induces sweat and tears.... You really think a muslim couldnt swing a semantic argument on how that is indeed LOVING, you know they could. Why do you not see yourself doing the same?
SLAVERY IS IMMORAL..... thats the end of the debate. If someone promotes it, they are immoral. If Life is the most precious thing, then worse than death is taking someone life while they live and breathe!
I have debated, chatted and laughed with you for some years now here, I personally feel uncomfortable discussing such issues DIRECTLY anymore as if there is an equal argument either side, you know ther isnt Tec. Slavery is immoral as is its promotion, reference without condemnation and instruction as found in the OT, refered to by Jesus. Why didnt he say...by the way that slavery was nothing to do with us!

Lets debate the logic and reasoning for anyone defending gods son in flesh form, sent to earth due to an apple being eaten following seduction from a snake.... to come and tell people a message of love..and destruction, of forgiveness and eternal justice, of gentile acceptance and ...slavery.

It doesnt add up in 2012 Tec, morals have progressed as we have realised there place in society. To protect the greater good. Its not complicated, you are a very intelligent woman. A lovely, friendly, loyal, dedicated woman. But please come on now.... let it go..............
Open your mind to the POSSIBILITY that it just isnt true, then re-examine everything with that mindset.... see what happens. There is nothing to fear if it is all true, there is also nothing to defend x
Cheers Tec, hope I have not offended you, it is said with best intentions x
Snare x
snare&racket

Cagefighter, that simply is not true. Lets end it finally... please reference a historical, non christian source that says slavery was no different to a job contract. Because then we have some explaining to do regarding injuring your slave, the sex of your slave, taking slaves against their will from other nations. Not having debt or interest... but having slavery.. But before all that PLEASE finally... cite a source thay slaves were nothing more than workers in Jesus' day.
Please remember that this is after egypt, after all the slaves they took, it was during Roman times with slave ships, slave deaths in a gladitorial ring. Lets see the history books that says slavery was not what we think it is:
Loss of freedom
Loss of self determination
Loss of autonomy
Owned by another human being
+/- Taken without your will
Without choice used for sexual activity/manual labour/ menial work/ derogatoy or demeaning work/
All pretty disgusting and revolting and condoned by god..... Lets be clear...

The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave. What kind of family values are these?
The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!
What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
tec

Why TRY to defend the promotion of slavery by a god and then its reference without condemnation from his, earth born, god in flesh son..
Who tried to defend the promotion of slavery?
Slavery is a human construct.
Do you dare to question gods authority to dictate GOOD and EVIL?
I do not know what you mean by this.
By making a square peg fit into a round hole...you are questioning him. He said slavery was ok and he decides... thats his message, that is the whole Adam and Eve story.
Again, slavery is a human construct.
Please Tec, its boring, frustrating and sad.... let it go. Would you entertain for a moment a Muslim telling you of the justice and love of Allah as he supported the slaughter through spain or his plans at judgment when we will all stand naked before the sun and be near or far depending on sin, only to drown or live depending on our volume of fear induces sweat and tears.... You really think a muslim couldnt swing a semantic argument on how that is indeed LOVING, you know they could. Why do you not see yourself doing the same?
You are not making sense to me here. Or perhaps that is because your basis of understanding is that God created the construct of enslaving one's fellow man, and condones it. Whereas I understand it to be a HUMAN construct.
SLAVERY IS IMMORAL..... thats the end of the debate. If someone promotes it, they are immoral. If Life is the most precious thing, then worse than death is taking someone life while they live and breathe!
Enslaving anther person IS immoral. Christ's own teachings show this to be true, just as love (the core of his teachings on how we are to treat one another) ALSO shows this.
I am not arguing that slavery is moral, Snare.
I have debated, chatted and laughed with you for some years now here, I personally feel uncomfortable discussing such issues DIRECTLY anymore as if there is an equal argument either side, you know ther isnt Tec. Slavery is immoral as is its promotion, reference without condemnation and instruction as found in the OT, refered to by Jesus. Why didnt he say...by the way that slavery was nothing to do with us!
His very teachings and example DO state that. That is why one must look to Christ, to see God. Not the OT, or any other source. (other than love)
Open your mind to the POSSIBILITY that it just isnt true, then re-examine everything with that mindset.... see what happens. There is nothing to fear if it is all true, there is also nothing to defend x
Truly, Snare, what makes you think I have not done so? Simply because i have not reached the same conclusion as you?
(I also do not fear, Snare)
Cheers Tec, hope I have not offended you, it is said with best intentions x
Cheers to you as well. I know that your intentions are good, and you did not offend me. You said a lot of nice things about me, but I think that your premise (slavery being God's will, rather than a human construct) is inaccurate. So we are kind of missing each other, as to the content of this thread.
Peace to you,
tammy
tec

An illustration... (as to the first question that you added. He also stated that one should pluck out one's eye if it causes you to sin... another illustration. He did not mean for someone to pluck out their eye literally. What good would that even do, if what causes people to sin is within us, and not without)
Peace,
tammy
jam

Let me get this straight Jesus the Messiah, spoke out
against the religious leaders (calling them names), setting
things straight. For centuries the Jews had believe they were
serving God. Jesus boldly proclaim to the hypocrites,serpents and
vipers, no you are wrong you full of sh---t.
" It was a part of the culture and the system," I don,t think Jesus
gave a damn about the culture and the system, he didn,t
think that was a problem (slavery). I would love to ask the slaves
how they felt. What was the culture like when DR. King came forward,
and he was not the Messiah. Jesus was here to set all matters straight.
tec

Jam, same question for you.
Does love allow a person to enslave another person against their will? If so, how?
Peace,
tammy
jam

Maybe they didn,t pluck out one,s eye but they
did beat slaves. True?
tec

The point is that it was an illustration.
What they once did is not important... what they did after listening to Christ IS. Did Christ beat slaves? Did he even own slaves? There is nothing to suggest that either of these is true, and His teachings and example suggest just the opposite. That is what we learn from.
Peace,
tammy
jam

The point made it was their culture, doesn,t make it right.
The bottom line, Jesus did not speak out against it.
And to answer your question, I can not conceive the idea
of me enslaving another human being. So are you asking
do I have a greater love for my fellow human being then
those spoken of in the Bible (God,s chosen people) Yes.
tec

I was asking, pure and simple, if love could enslave another human being. Because I do not see how a person who loves his fellow man, as Christ loved us and taught us to love one another, could enslave another person against their will.
Which brings me right back to my point: learn to love (clean the inside of the cup)... and all else follows. Including knowing NOT to enslave another person against their will. Might take longer to learn that way, instead of simply following a rule... but that learning is a part of you; within you; written upon your heart and conscience... and so not discarded as easily as a simple rule. Too deeply ingrained for that.
There were early followers of Christ speaking out against those among them who enslaved others... they spoke out because of the teachings of Christ. Even Paul did so in one of his letters.
Peace,
tammy

Christ's 'silence' on slavery.

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