Fantastic quote on jwfacts Sparlock article

by cedars 115 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  King Solomon

  Thanks for the full excerpt, Blacksheep.

  Sizemik said:

  That description is of a steady, graduated tightening of control . . . the idea of it being a "position shift" or "policy change" was introduced by YOU. And I see you already know what that's called . . .

  I repeated his assertion in the first post:

  This illustrates perfectly that the material in the Society's publications is steadily becoming more extreme, with less and less room for flexibility in how principles are to be interpreted.

  If you don't see how "the material in the Society's publication is steadily becoming more extreme" constitutes a "WT position shift", then you have other issues with critical thinking.

  As an example of a REAL TANGIBLE position shift, consider how the Society shifted to a more liberal policy for education. 00DAD knows this from personal experience: he recently related in another thread how he took advantage of the loosening to obtain his music educ degree, but a few years later, the policy shifted back to the more conservative policy, and the window closed. THAT constitutes a case where the Society's policy shifted, "became more liberal, then conservative, or extreme". Most position shifts are communicated to R&F via the publications, as that's one of the primary means of communicating policy to R&F JWs.

  However, on this instance of magic toys, the position has not changed ONE BIT since the 1980's Awake (and as Ziddina points out, the policy hasn't changed from back in the 1980s). Heck, it's probably the same as it was when I was a kid, as there were magic toys I was not allowed to buy, and any that we had WERE burned in a backyard bonfire! I remember even then being told that it wasn't so much based on my mom's conscience, but based on not stumbling others. It seemed stoopid (sic), but it was what it was....

  (in fact, some of the YouTube Sparlock videos (Danmera's, I think?) make a point of how JW kids learn to think on their feet and LIE, as they had learned from prior experience that such probing questions like the one Caleb's mom asked him are only going to lead to losing a toy if they don't get the answer right!)

  But the point remains: engaging in hyperbole and stretching of the truth gains points with NO ONE, either JW's, or with non-JW relatives who have family members who are looking for ACCURATE INFORMATION. Don't waste MY time by lying to me, as I personally resent being lied to, esp when I realize this person is biased, but worse: they KNOW they're biased, and resist ALL criticism to fix their problem. That's their ego talking, not mine: I've learned that you lead horsies, but can't make em' drink.

  Paul Grundy's domain name for his site is JWFACTS.COM: I ran across his site along time ago, and was impressed with the air-tight "just the facts only" approach he uses to communicate FACTS in a very compelling manner, not needing to resort to truth-stretching or "writers embellishment" to try and deceive his readers. Deception is NOT a viable strategy to win the hearts and minds of JWs who may be lurking, or anyone else, for that matter.

  In contrast, I also watched many "apostate" videos uploaded to YT, many of which contained points I could discern which, unfortunately, were lost under the screaming rants of their creators. Hey, there's alot of pain and hatred that people carry against JWs when DFed, which is understandable, BUT it is hardly persuasive to anyone else. Such actions live right up to the "mentally-diseased" description that the WTBTS paints all ex-JWs with, and it actually SUPPORTS their claim.

  This video is funny, and there's alot of truth in there, but there's also alot of venom on display, as well:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZZu2G8XZ1I

  Now obviously he's allowed to post whatever he likes (free speech), and I think the guys got talent (he's got a funny delivery, reminding me of Bobcat Goldwaithe), but does he seem objective? Would you show that video to your JW family members who are still in, to persuade them of TTATT?

  Check this one out:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqf7Auf7TP0

  Are you going to have JW family members look at that one, as evidence of the evils of Sparlock? She opens by calling the Mom a bitch (ad hominem).

  ---

  At the end of the day, everyone should ask WHAT YOU hope to accomplish here on JWN: are you trying to expose TTATT in an honest and objective manner, or are you airing your personal anger and venting against the Society, or is there some other agenda?
• 

  OUTLAW

  The WBT$ always gives JW`s a Choice..

  It`s up to every JW to make the WBT$ Choice or..

  Suffer the Consequenses..

  It`s time for this JW..

  To make a Choice..

  

  ............................ ...OUTLAW
• 

  steve2

  This thread feels more and more like a moist sponge cake cooked three times over to now be a dry pancake.

  Whatever I or anyone else may think, it is a safe bet the damn cake has been over-cooked.
• 

  King Solomon

  Steve said:

  Whatever I or anyone else may think, it is a safe bet the damn cake has been over-cooked.

  Obtaining an fair, objective, and factual examination of a subject sometimes IS painful as I can imagine Terry's recent tooth episode was (!), but we've got a full quote provided from Blacksheep, so everyone can make up their own minds if the "position has changed" (or shifted, or whatever the semantics sizemik protested about).

  This is similar to the issue encountered in the ASL masturbation video: some were reacting as if the anti-masturbation message had been transformed into something else, simply by translating it in ASL; it really was the SAME exact content/message converted into another means of expression, just as here (Sparlock: print policy into cartoon; masturbation: print to ASL).

  It's a basic adaptation of a message into different types of media, and is simply more of the same non-sense policies, but told in a different manner and modified to it's target audience (Sparlock: young children).
• 

  jwfacts

  KS It's a basic adaptation of a message into different types of media, and is simply more of the same non-sense policies, but told in a different manner and modified to it's target audience

  The Awake left room for the reader to make their own decision about magical toys, whereas the DVD just gave a single viewpoint - wizards are wrong. Therefore, the message is more direct and will be harder for a JW to go against. However, I agree this is partly due to the medium and target audience. Therefore, some JWs will still find a way to justify having toys, books and movies about wizards, claiming the message was simplified for children.

  Interestingly, in both it is not the Watchtower leaders discussing magical toys, but "some parents" or Caleb's mother. If the Watchtower wanted to make a clear ban on stories to do with magic they could make a specific statement in the study edition of the Watchtower. They are too smart for that, and this way can claim publically to being misinterpretted and misrepresented. The message does not appear too harsh, and yet the average JW will still feel guilted into following it.
• 

  ziddina

  " ...(and as Ziddina points out, the policy hasn't changed from back in the 1980s). ..." King Solomon, page #4

  Man, I coulda swore I typed in a "6" instead of an "8" - as in, 19 6 0s...

  And not to belie my dragon nature, but I'd like to see if I can offer a bit of peace here...

  We all know that the Watchtower Society flip-flops on doctrine and edicts for their followers. Sometimes the control eases, then tightens again. And it does look as though the control has been increasing within the last 5 - 10 years - perhaps an increasing sense of failure upon the part of the Governing Body members? Perhaps a dawning awareness that the cult's effective lifespan is finite, limited - and it is already seeing shrinkage, especially in the relatively wealthy "first world" nations??

  At any rate, if you're [we're??] arguing semantics instead of examining Watchtower deviousness, we're misdirecting our energy, in my humble opinion...
• 

  Black Sheep

  The Awake left room for the reader to make their own decision about ...

  WT articles often do this, but then give the basis for making the decision, defining what the conscience should dictate, defining the 'honest heart', 'true Xtian, etc., etc., ad infinitum. That is why we must always have read the full quote, or article, before bringing it up, or commenting on it, in the presence of a Dub.

  JWs use this trick themselves at the door... "Who is Jehovah gonna kill at Armageddon?" will evoke this trick every time.

  We have to be better than them. We have to be squeaky clean. They have to know it.
• 

  cedars

  The only reason this thread has been "overcooked" is that KS is apparently obsessed with contradicting me on any subject at any opportunity, just for the hell of it.

  This thread was merely my attempt to draw attention to an excellent quote on jwfacts.com that demonstrates a marked shift from the uncompromising stance shown in the new children's DVD - nothing more, nothing less. Any JWs who read it and check it will see it for what it is and be amazed that the attitude portrayed in the DVD could be so different from what was written previously in the publications. They will not (unless they have serious issues and are entirely unready to leave their indoctrination) be quibbling over what appears in the next paragraph. I'm just sorry that others have been swept along by the furore. If nothing else, at least this thread has been bumped a lot so people can check out the excellent article for themselves. This is one small mercy.

  As to KS, he demands respect because of his credentials as a retired doctor, but affords no respect to those who disagree with him - speaking to such ones in a patronizing and condescending manner on numerous threads.

  He acts like he is an authority on Jehovah's Witnesses even though he claims he never actually was one.

  He uses my background against me in an attempt to intimidate and harass me, but offers no background of his own - other than that he is a retired doctor and left the faith unbaptized at 13.

  It seems he got out of bed one morning two and a half months ago and decided to suddenly blitz a forum with nearly 30 posts a day about a religion he left behind decades ago (perhaps 40-50 years ago?) in his childhood. I personally find that curious to say the least, but maybe it's just me.

  He claims he is trying to help lurkers get a balanced perspective, but he demeans and ridicules those like me who try to help such ones with balanced criticism of the religion despite still officially being Jehovah's Witnesses (implying that faders are immature), and even stands up for the Watchtower on certain issues. I have been told that my articles are among the more balanced "JW friendly" ones to be found on the internet, but I don't see KS going after any other activist bloggers/writers with nearly the same enthusiasm or levels of criticism.

  If KS is a retired doctor who never actually was a baptized Witness, then he has one strange obsession with the religion - and shouting down opponents of the Watchtower in particular. It's just a shame he's hijacked such an innocent thread so successfully.

  That's just my opinion. I'm sorry if it's forthright, but I feel it needs to be said.

  Cedars
• 

  sizemik

  They are too smart for that, and this way can claim publically to being misinterpretted and misrepresented. . . . jwfacts

  Yeah . . . and then they'll drag the Awake quote out again to show how moderate their "official" stance is. We all know how different it works at congo level. You get taken off mikes LOL. Control 101. Easy peasy.

  Of course they're tightening control . . . because their fear of losing it is high at this time. We all know the reasons why that is as well.

  The video is in keeping with that trend in the opinion of the OP. I agree with that opinion. They've got a serious retention problem with Witness children disappearing and the shunning it generates is causing all kinds of problems for them, not to mention the current rate of scandals. It's all bad noise . . . and has a big effect. Many here have claimed scandals and scandalous behaviour has prompting them to first question.

  The WTS response is basically to demand more obedience through stricter control and seperation from outside influence. Not too imaginative what what can you expect? What else can they do?

  The next step for a kid like Caleb is gaming . . . and that'll take him to hell and back in no time. The control for children must begin early . . . and you can't alter standards on them later. There's a reason for this angle relating to their indoctrination and retention. It will probably work on some.

  @KS . . . being aware of your distaste for ad hominem . . . I'll simply thank you for the quick-fire diagnosis of my critical thinking skills. Don't send a bill.

  I've learned that you lead horsies, but can't make em' drink.

  Heard of this one? You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

  Perhaps the good Dr's bedside manner has retired also.
• 

  steve2

  Okay, I'm contributing to the over-cooking. KS said that: "Obtaining an fair, objective, and factual examination of a subject sometimes IS painful..." Who could dispute this or complain about it? The evidence was presented earlier in the thread, generous comments were made representing different sides. Then the regurgitation started and around and around and around it went. I guess it demonstrates that people in all sincerity can look at the self-same evidence and reach different conclusions and none of the "sides" is necessarily being obtuse or deficient in reasoning.

  For the record, I am probably closer to KS' views than I care to admit - even though I notice an unfeeling, almost asperger-like need for him to jump on cedars (and yes, then cedars gets caught up in trying to have the modern-day equivalent of a reveal-all duel with KS (the intellectual equivalent of an I-dare-you-to-tell-us-about-yourself-and-your-motives which in other contexts would be translated as "Show-us-what-you-got" Oh dear cedars - that's off topic if ever a comment on this thread was).

  Boys, boys, boys - get out of the kitchen and have a fight like "real" boys - the cake's way overdone (um, I'm being ironic BTW).