Fantastic quote on jwfacts Sparlock article

by cedars 115 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • steve2
    steve2
    Caleb: "Mom, let's talk straight up for a moment: I KNOW that you KNOW deep-down that magic doesn't REALLY exist, so let's just put THAT one to bed, OK? We all say and do things we don't really believe in at times: I get that! HOWEVER, we have to PRETEND like magic DOES exist as part of our JW eschatology, so we act like we believe the schtick about Satan using magic to seduce men into following him, blah-blah-blah. So officially we DO believe in magic, even though we both know it's kinda SILLY..."

    Well, point is JWs do not view magic as silly - even at a claimed "logical" level. They fervently believe that Satan's powerful influence does lie waiting to catch the unwary - which is why JWs can become visibly upset when they suspect an object in their possession or, more likely, in another witness's possession could be "demonic" and needs to be thrown out, even if it's a "mere" toy. In fact, all the more reason to be on guard.

    So, whether it's called "magic" (a word children easily grasp), or "demonic", "satanic" or "evil" or some word, the JW (parental) mindset registers immediately - and with some alarm - what the implications could be. It is never "just" a toy.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Yeah, Steve2, I get your point: maybe I scripted Caleb too much as a jaded JW insider who knows TTATT but nevertheless remains in (and a 5 yo doesn't really have any choice in the matter BUT to believe whatever his parents tell him to believe, does he?). Caleb hasn't yet learned to 'ixnay on the agicmay' talk yet for any toys he wants to keep, or that he should've picked his parents more carefully....

    Obviously JWs believe that magic = bad guys (Satan et al), miracles = good guys (YHWH, Jesus). Ah, gimme that old-time Zooasterianism, with the struggle between dualistic forces of pure good and pure evil....

    All I knew was that when I was a young JW kid (in the 60's), I wouldn't be allowed to play with a magic toy like Sparlock (had it existed), and that toy policy is no "more extreme" as it was back then. Granted, the DVD depicts the most-extreme example imaginable of "magical element" content pegging the meter at 100%, and many parents MAY abandon some toys in the "gray area" by adopting a "better safe than sorry", "throw out the baby with the bathwater" over-reaction.

    But to suggest that depicting the extreme suggests a change in policy is also overstating the case, no matter how much anyone protests. Its called "fallacy of the excluded middle" and is tempting to do, when it's so easy to reduce everything down to dualistic binaries (black/white, good/bad, yes/no, acceptable/unacceptable).

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    All I knew was that when I was a young JW kid (in the 60's), I wouldn't be allowed to play with a magic toy like Sparlock (had it existed), and that toy policy is no "more extreme" as it was back then.

    I didn't find the 1994 quote 'Fantastic' because of the difference either. I was brought up by Caleb's parents. I had freedom to make choices too, but "You wouldn't want to make Jehovah sad now, would you?" wasn't really a question. We all knew the answer:

    Awake! 22 October 1960
    So let not parents think that their children
    will receive such protection regardless
    of how they may rear their children. Not
    at all! Children to be spared at Armageddon
    will have to be bringing forth Christian
    fruits to the extent their years permit.
    And parents should not minimize what
    young children can learn and do. Newspaper reports
    tell of children as young as
    four years stealing. Surely such delinquent
    children will not be spared even if their
    own parents were heeding the command
    at Zephaniah 2:3 to 'seek Jehovah, righteousness
    and meekness.' Rather, the rule
    would apply: "Even by his practices a boy
    makes himself recognized as to whether
    his activity is pure and upright."-Prov.
    20:11.

    Paradise Lost 1958

  • sizemik
    sizemik
    Fyi cedars i wasnt responding to you.....

    No . . . you were responding to me. Unlike you, I have no desire to point out the obvious.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Well, THAT'S some pretty-horrific imagery I forgot all about, Black Sheep. Thanks! (I guess, lol!)

    Yeah, they didn't know how to put the fear of YHWH in kids, back in the good ol' days; it was such a kinder, gentler time

    I forgot about the dead pet dog, and is the little dead girl still clinging to her doll, even in death? Some children NEVER learn their lessons, even after they're severely punished with death! Looks like a plain-Jane baby doll, but it probably is a fairy-princess that exceeded the acceptable-allowable "magical element" quota for YHWH's tastes, so Suzy didn't pass her finals... Poor, poor, evil wicked child.

    And Caleb? The poor bastard wouldn't stand a chance back in the fantasized Armageddon of 1975, likely being struck by lightning on the front lawn after saying the word, "magic!", lol!

    Methinks some alarmists are spreading alarm about the alarmists increasing alarm, without there actually BEING much cause for alarm. It's narcissism to think now is when things are getting worse and everything is going to hell in a hand-basket, whether you are in the JWs or out. Time-frames of ALL events happening on the Earth are not actually calibrated by what is happening in JW World, believe it or not.

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Stealth - After watching the Sparlock video, I think the question for JWs at this point is, should they allow their children to watch the Disney Jr channel? After all it's tag line is; 'Where the MAGIC begins' http://disney.go.com/disneyjunior

    Good point. I will include that quote.

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    I know you are so clever!

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    Look.

    The quote from 1994 Awake! is at complete odds with the Sparlock video.

    If KS can't get that, he should be a witness.

    The '94 Awake is saying it is a conscience matter; the video straight up says that 'magic' makes Jehovah sad. They should say angry, because God kills those who make him angry, like Adam and Eve.

    If you read the Awake, the take away is it is a conscience matter, neither black nor white.

    The video has no such nuance; it is wrong to practice magic and having a magic toy makes God 'sad'. No allowance that it may be an allegory for good vs evil. Like Adam and Eve sin kind of wrong, make God 'sad' kind of wrong.

    NO nuance.

    So KS stop with the waffling and apologizing for the flip flops of the WT.

  • undercover
    undercover

    Dubs are funny folks when it comes to 'magic'.

    One elder I knew only allowed his kids to own Disney movies. The shelf was lined with em, including Snow White and Cinderella. Bed Knobs and Broomsticks, however was forbidden.

    Most dubs I know avoid Harry Potter books and movies like the plague. Yet, most dubs I know really enjoyed the Lord of the Ring movies, and some have read the books. Is there a difference between the magic used by Harry's wand vs Gandolf's staff?

    Some kids I knew weren't allowed to watch Scooby Doo. JW parents assumed the supernatural events were real, when in fact there was always some reasonable explanation that those meddling kids were able to expose in 30 minutes. Yet, those same JW kids were allowed to watch Genie and Bewitched.

    But the WTS has come along with Sparlock. They are clearing up the matter. There is no difference between Harry Potter and Gandalf. There is no difference between the witch in Snow White and other live action Disney movies. It all makes Jehovah sad. All of it should be thrown away. The problem is that this isn't 1958, or 1965. People aren't as easily coerced to blindly obey on flimsy reasoning. Time will tell how JWs in general respond to this new tack by the WTS. My guess is that most will ignore it, just like they ignore Kingdom Melodies when given the choice of so many other forms of (non-JW) music to enjoy.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Pistoff said:

    The '94 Awake is saying it is a conscience matter; the video straight up says that 'magic' makes Jehovah sad. They should say angry, because God kills those who make him angry, like Adam and Eve.

    If you read the Awake, the take away is it is a conscience matter, neither black nor white.

    The video has no such nuance; it is wrong to practice magic and having a magic toy makes God 'sad'. No allowance that it may be an allegory for good vs evil. Like Adam and Eve sin kind of wrong, make God 'sad' kind of wrong. NO nuance. So KS stop with the waffling and apologizing for the flip flops of the WT.

    Supernatural-based "magic toys" have ALWAYS been forbidden in JW World, like magic is forbidden in the Bible (look up Deuteronomy prohibiting magic), considered as the work of Satan. Surely you got that? In JW eschatology, magic toys DO make YWHW "unhappy" just as they always have. Not new. That was the point of the snake in the video: Satan at work, tempting Caleb.

    WT '94 was referring to toys that contain "magical elements", which indicates that a FRACTION or PERCENTAGE of a character's persona relies on magic, eg Luke Skywalker has some magical occult elements ("use the force, Luke!") so is that toy allowed or not? Luke is a conscience matter, in the "grey area" (no magic explicitly stated, AFAIK).

    Look up the word 'wizard' sometime, though, and you'll see the definition of wizard is "practitioner of magic": pure and simple. Maybe they should've left the word "warrior" out, calling him "Sparlock the Wizard", as it seems some are confused by 'warrior'. Regardless, Caleb says he's a practitioner of magic ("use your magic cape, Sparlock!"), Caleb answered yes to the "magic" question. Case closed: Sparlock uses magic, as no spit, Sparlock: he's intentionally designed by WTBTS to be the epitome of a "magic toy". They couldn't have made it ANY more blatant.

    Now, if you cannot understand the difference between toys that contain "magic elements" (eg Star Wars 'Luke Skywalker') vs ones that are specifically created to depict the EPITOME of clear-cut, full-throttle magic, with "magical element" set to a max = 100%, then don't blame me. YOU don't get it.

    YOU didn't read the article carefully enough, just as most everyone else didn't catch the subtleties of what the article was actually saying. Maybe JWs are actually becoming dumber nowadays, as many JWs apparently are dying over the blood issue, not understanding the "blood fraction" concept. Oh well: that's natural selection in action for you.

    UC said:

    One elder I knew only allowed his kids to own Disney movies. The shelf was lined with em, including Snow White and Cinderella. Bed Knobs and Broomsticks, however was forbidden.

    Yeah, I know of an elder who's a BIG Disney fan, and I suspect this is where it's good to be an elder, making the interpretations.

    The "Disney: where the Magic Begins!" claim will likely be easily dismissed by saying that it refers more to the magic created via illusion (eg illusionists like Penn and Teller, who openly admit there's no "magic" to "magic") and magic of the animators, and not relying on supernatural or occult magic.

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