I describe it as very common and very stupid. You love because the other person deserves to be loved for one or many reasons, but love is earned and should not be given away unconditionally. I make exception for parents, they are obligated to care for their children to the best of their abilities. They may choose not to love them, but they must care for the little ones as if they love them very much
Unconditional Love-How would you describe it?
by rip van winkle 239 Replies latest members private
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tec
So unlike the old saying, seeing is NOT always believing
Yes, Sol, but your question was 'if you did experience unconditional love (or thought you did), then how would you know it exists? Then you compared it to belief in the boogeyman not meaning the bogeyman exists. Which I agree with. Belief does not necessarily equal reality.
But experiencing unconditional love is not the same as experiencing a belief in unconditional love. That is why I said there was a flaw in your reasoning.
And if you have experienced unconditional love, you are in a better position to state that it exists... than someone who has not experienced it. Because not experiencing something does not mean that something does not exist. Just means you, yourself, have not experienced it. Or perhaps even recognized it.
I guess I just find it hard to understand how anyone can seem so certain something does not exist just because they have not experienced it... even after others state so clearly that they have experienced it. Does the possibility not enter your mind that perhaps such a thing does exist, but some simply have not experienced it for themselves?
Peace,
tammy
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mrsjones5
" because I posted "Thank you very much!" to Angharad in Hungarian"
Thank you Dad...and KS.
I didn't bother going to the link. I figure if you couldn't bother to tell me outright I need not bother to go to the link.
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rip van winkle
Well, I've been writing and I lost the whole page, You just missed out on the best writing I've never done!!! Now, I will try to recreate it- but the original was way better!!!! Sorry you won't get to read it.
I'm glad to see the Unconditional Love thread has returned. I hope that those who continue to participate are here for the purpose of having a meaningful dialogue.
All I can say is I have been on both the receiving end and the giving end of Unconditional Love. As I have stated throughout this thread, I believe that UL is a choice. A decision. It's not about getting back what you give. If you do receive it in return, that's an added bonus- not the salary.
I am not speaking about fairytales or delusions.What I experienced was real, was true and was probably the biggest learning experience of my life. I'm not "preaching" that it is something anyone here should do. What I have been expressing about UL, I applied in my own life. I experienced it. I gave it. It changed me from the person I was to something better than before.
This entire discussion has clearly been defined. Some believing of it's existence and some not. Those, like myself, believe there is acceptable and unacceptable behaviours. Unacceptable behaviour such as abuse is not to be tolerated in any way shape or form. From the beginning of this thread I clearly defined that one needs to love themself first. If you do not, you are bound to be hurt in the decisions you make with your relationships.
Love is also a subjective matter. People can't necessarily agree what love is, but they can agree what love is not. To quote Forrest Gump he said to Jenny:"I may not be a smart man, but I know what love is." And, the saying "Seeing is believing" is true and could also be applied to UL. Maybe in order to believe it you need to see it. Well, I have.
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rip van winkle
00Dad- Your thoughts and comments have been welcomed here. Your thread on Relationship-Issues- Boundaries, etc. is the reason that this thread began. Without your thread and your thoughts and the question of Unconditional Love- I would have never started this one
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Ksol said: " As far as Steve Hassan's clinging to concept of UL: "Unconditional Love" and HE equates that to REAL Love.
Perhaps Hassan uses that ideal as motivation to draw a contrast between the controlling love of cults: that apparently works fine for the purposes of straw-manning cults, but it proves inadequate approach to working with patients who are co-dependents (see above). He can explain to all the battered women in shelters how they should stick to their belief that UL covers a multitude of sins, if only they give enough to the narcissist in their life who exploits their giving nature to their own harm...."
KSol- Please, Sol, your statement is clearly your opinion as to what Steven Hassan believes. Isn't he better suited to define for himself what he meant. He didn't say that UL was only for a specific purpose. His statement seems unambiguous to me.
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Tec said to Ksol: There is a flaw in your reasoning here. If you experience something, you know it exists because you experience it. Not the belief... but the thing you believe in. In fact, you probably believe in it BECAUSE you experienced it.
Of course if you experience a belief... that belief exists. (such as belief in the boogeyman) Doesn't mean what you believe in exists (such as the boogeyman). This much is true. But if you actually experience unconditional love, then the unconditional love exists. Not the belief... unless you only believe in it without having experienced it.
Just because you (you in general) have not felt or experienced something, does not mean that it does not exist.
Tec- I wholeheartedly agree with your statement.
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Still thinking to Ksol- I totally understand what you are saying about people misunderstanding what unconditional love is and leaving the door open to be abused or taken advantage of. But that is not about unconditional love. That is about peoples misinterpretation of it. And misunderstanding what it is. Some people think that it means turning the other cheek all the time, or being a doormat. Giving of yourself but giving nothing to yourself. That is not unconditional love. Not even remotely.
When you love and respect yourself first...this does not happen. You are then free to love unconditionally without fear of abuse. You will not allow yourself to be abused.
Why doesn't love fix it all? Answer: Because what you are doing is NOT love, and love is not the cure for everything. But it is the cure for you, when applied to yourself first.
Still thinking- Thank you for you input and once again clearly defining what it is and what it is not.
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Apostate thunder said: Conditional love is a deal, unconditional love is a gift.
I agree Apostate Thunder. 2nd to the gift of life, it was the greatest gift I have ever received.
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Talesin said " I was once told, that someone who advocates for peace , should not be standing up at a rally, and angrily shouting against war ."
Tal- that's a fine point to remember. Who would have thought a subject about love could become so lively!? I will try to learn how to apply that sentiment.
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Ziddina- You Devil- She devil, that is!!! Z- did you come back for the floor show or the main attraction? Anyway, good to see you, again!
Mrs. Jones-Hey!!!
Never a JW- Thank you for your thoughts on the subject. And in the case of a healthy parent-child relationship you could understand the idea of loving your children unconditionally?
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still thinking
WOW...I've never seen a thread resurrected before.
Going to read the latest comments...thanks
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still thinking
but love is earned and should not be given away unconditionally....never a JW
I would disagree with this...trust is earned, and rightly so.
Love is an emotion usually followed by actions. It is either given freely or given with conditons. If it is given with the condition that it must be earned, it is not unconditional and what sort of love has conditions applied?
I will only love you IF you do what I want?
I will only love you IF you do what I say?
I will only love you IF..............................?
IF
Now apply that to yourself....
I will only love myself IF I am successful.
I will only love myself IF I am slim.
I will only love myself IF other people love me.
I will only love myself IF...........................
Are we really loving ourselves when we add conditions? Are we really loving others when we add conditions?
It is possible to love without conditions applied. This love is shown regardless of whether you meet MY conditions or not.
I am not saying we have to love everyone. Not at all. But if we choose to love someone. Why add conditions to that love? There are plenty of other things in life that have conditions attached. Love need not be one of them.
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still thinking
"if you love someone set them free; if they don't return, they never were yours".
I have always loved that saying...it is true.
I think it is important to keep it in context though. And to not push people away...as though it is some sort of test. I think sometimes people confuse this too.
Yeah, i agree: I've always taken it not as something that is done to test the boundaries of love (which wouldn't be necessary, if someone was in a MUTUAL UL relationship, right?), but perhaps the advice to take to heart when at the last stages of a dissolving relationship, and you really have no choice BUT to accept the prospect of loss.
It IS paradoxical advice for some, but sometimes people get so wrapped up in a self-centered fear of what THEY might lose, and lose focus on the needs of the other person; they end up destroying the very thing they're claiming to try to protect.... No different really from the observation that a lifeguard trying to save a drowning person is likely to drown to death, too, as the victim they're trying to save is flailing wildly, and thus threatens the survival of both....
When we understand that we have no control over what others do...we can live like that. Giving people the freedom to be who and what they are. Regardless of whether we receive unconditional love or not.
I agree that it helps if you are in the last stages of a dissolving relationship to understand this. But even in an existing relationship it is an invaluable lesson to learn that no one is your possession. They are staying because of their own choice, not yours. So trying to grasp at straws, manipulate or control another damages everyone in the relationship. The controller included.
If at the end of the day, you don't know if the other person loves you or fears you because of your stipulations how will you ever know if they really love you? When you let things go, and allow other the freedom to live. If the love is true, it will return to you.
Unfortunately, I think many of us are so messed up about what love is. We have unrealisitic expectations. Which we impose on others. We search for love in the wrong places because we don't know what it is we are searching for. We get sucked into cults and silly religions because they are selling their flavour of love.
We need to teach our children to love themselves. Then they will be able to recognise real love when they see it.
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never a jw
Still thinking wrote,
"....But if we choose to love someone. Why add conditions to that love?"
Choosing a person is part of the conditions. You love a person who has qualities that make her/him lovable. The point is that it is totally senseless when people love a person and can"t explain why (i.e. unconditionally). The condition for my loving my wife is that she displays lovable qualities and bestows them upon me, not the neighbor. You and some of my friends are able to love the person who mistreats you, has a horrible personality or cheats shamelessly on you, but I can't. Yes, my love is very conditional, the person I love has to be a good person and display good human qualities towards me and towards others. Yes, I know, I know, I should love without condition, but I refuse to be stupid.
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still thinking
Choosing a person is part of the conditions.
So, after you have chosen to love this person, you place conditions on them for continuing to recieve your love?
The condition for my loving my wife is that she displays lovable qualities and bestows them upon me, not the neighbor.
Are you defining what loving qualities are by the actions of your wife? Are they limited by what goes on between a couple? I would say there are different types of love. Showing you one type does not mean she cannot show another to someone else.
You and some of my friends are able to love the person who mistreats you, has a horrible personality or cheats shamelessly on you, but I can't
I cannot claim to love everyone...I don't. But, I can show love to those who mistreat me if I choose to. It is not conditional on what they do or don't do but it is my choice. I don't have to tolerate their bad behaviour either that is a seperate issue.
the person I love has to be a good person and display good human qualities towards me and towards others. Yes, I know, I know, I should love without condition, but I refuse to be stupid.
Are you only able to love one person? I doubt that. We love all sorts of people for different reasons. And not because they are perfect people. In fact...most arent. But we still love them regardless don't we? We are not perfect ourselves, but we should still love ourselves regardless of that.