If you've never experienced it, never felt it--either as the lover or the one being loved--how would you know it exists?
Unconditional Love-How would you describe it?
by rip van winkle 239 Replies latest members private
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King Solomon
ooDad said:
If you've never experienced it, never felt it--either as the lover or the one being loved--how would you know it exists?
And if you DID experience it (or thought you did), how would you ALSO know it exists? Many people experienced a belief in boogey men, Santa Claus, God, demons, etc, and SINCERELY believed it was real. Fact is, belief in something is NOT reality.
UL IS a belief, so if you allow yourself to think of it, fine: no can prove that you HONESTLY, SINCERELY don't believe or feel it. But the fact is, it doesn't exist outside of anywhere but in the mind of the believer. Be my guest. I've never claimed it DOESN'T exist in some people's minds: obviously some people grasp to it, like any other belief, for whatever reasons they might have. I see it as a coping mechanism, even as a way to feel superior to others (as those who've expressed pity on those poor souls who cannot feel God's UL have used to bolster their own egos: you all know THAT dynamic in JWs, no doubt, the sanctimonious smugness of thinking THEY are better than the rest of us, since THEY are blessed).
And contrary to claims of those who insinuate I didn't know what you insist on calling "UL" (but I say is properly labelled as "love with lesser conditions") sorry: my Mother was a JW and was DFed. I loved her (I wasn't baptized, but I wasn't about to let a cult interfere with MY relationship with MY OWN Mom by going along with JW policy by shunning her). When she was reinstated, she threatened her own status in JWs by supported my choice to enter the military, and I have loving letters from her to reflect that (she died within the year of uterine cancer, after I joined the USAF).
I've given and received love with others in adulthood, but I'm not willing to waste energy chasing the fantasy of UL and rejecting what you claim to be the perceived inadequacy of love with limits (which IS the reality: most self-actualizing adults have limits, as opposed to who possess personalities bordering on clingy co-dependents).
As far as Steve Hassan's clinging to concept of UL:
"Unconditional Love" and HE equates that to REAL Love.
Perhaps Hassan uses that ideal as motivation to draw a contrast between the controlling love of cults: that apparently works fine for the purposes of straw-manning cults, but it proves inadequate approach to working with patients who are co-dependents (see above). He can explain to all the battered women in shelters how they should stick to their belief that UL covers a multitude of sins, if only they give enough to the narcissist in their life who exploits their giving nature to their own harm....
Fact is, some models of human behavior work better in some clinical settings, wheras they aren't universal and don't work as well with other patient populations in various therapy settings. This is a PERFECT example of such a situation: what works to demonize the cults is NOT going to work for others, so consider it a stepping stool to the reality of the situation (similar in medicine to titrating the dose or choosing the appropriate medicine, depending on the severity and presentation of the manifestation of the condition).
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King Solomon
This is in response to an earlier comment I made to rip, re: how different therapists will look at UL quite differently, depending on their patient base. This is from a organization that offers support to families dealing with drug abuse:
http://www.quihn.org/Downloads/GuideToCoping.pdf
Separating a person from their behaviour
Understanding a person’s drug dependency does not mean accepting inappropriate behaviour. You set limits with two-year- olds, and you set limits with adults. The limits you are setting are on behaviours. Children need limits that protect them from traffic, fire, poison etc. Adults need different limits, e.g. “you can’t yell at me”, “I can’t let you take all our money for drugs”.
The idea is to separate the person from their behaviour – spending every last cent on drugs and alcohol doesn’t mean users are stupid, they may be just overcome by need. Behaviours can be changed. Aspects of our personality can change. First of all, we must have a basic sense of being valued to make it worthwhile to take care of ourselves.
When we have children, we give them unconditional love. As they grow, the less we can expect unconditional love to exist between parent and child. Relationships become equal partnerships in which we have to earn love and respect – even from our parents. This is normal and healthy. Once we grow up, the only place we can get unconditional love, or more accurately unconditional positive regard, is from a skilled therapist. You are not your child’s, partner’s or friend’s therapist. You don’t have to provide unconditional love to an adult, no matter how much they may need it.
The pamphlet discusses the fine line between being an enabler of a child with substance abuse problems, but justifying it in the name of UL. That is why some therapists introduced the term "tough love": to clarify the difference between UL and enabling behaviors vs a strategy that places boundaries on the child's behavior that earns a loving response (rather than expecting it; there's that sense of entitlement again).
Remember that a meth user has UL for their drug, and will often do ANYTHING to get that next high, putting 'chasing the dragon' above anything else, including family, their own health and teeth, even above their own lives. THAT'S the power and danger of unrequited UL: no matter how much you love "it", it will be worthless if it won't be loving you back....
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tec
00DAD, you're the only one here who knows how best to deal with your son. Don't let anyone else's comments about your relationship and decisions with him, upset you... especially not someone getting barely a glimpse of things over the internet.
Sol, you said:
And if you DID experience it (or thought you did), how would you ALSO know it exists? Many people experienced a belief in boogey men, Santa Claus, God, demons, etc, and SINCERELY believed it was real. Fact is, belief in something is NOT reality.
There is a flaw in your reasoning here. If you experience something, you know it exists because you experience it. Not the belief... but the thing you believe in. In fact, you probably believe in it BECAUSE you experienced it.
Of course if you experience a belief... that belief exists. (such as belief in the boogeyman) Doesn't mean what you believe in exists (such as the boogeyman). This much is true. But if you actually experience unconditional love, then the unconditional love exists. Not the belief... unless you only believe in it without having experienced it.
Just because you (you in general) have not felt or experienced something, does not mean that it does not exist.
Mainly, from some comments on this thread, I think people just have different definitions of what universal love might be and so the (ironically enough) conditions they attach TO it makes what they think it is, impossible. Such as stating that you cannot love someone if you do not allow them to mistreat you. Stopping someone from mistreating you has nothing to do with whether or not you love them.
Peace,
tammy
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00DAD
tec: 00DAD, you're the only one here who knows how best to deal with your son. Don't let anyone else's comments about your relationship and decisions with him, upset you... especially not someone getting barely a glimpse of things over the internet.
Thanks Tammy!
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talesin
Like I said, KS, you need some healing.
00DAD <breathe in, breathe out>
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00DAD
Thank you Talesin, I've been taking your suggestion!
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still thinking
as those who've expressed pity on those poor souls who cannot feel God's UL have used to bolster their own egos: you all know THAT dynamic in JWs, no doubt, the sanctimonious smugness of thinking THEY are better than the rest of us, since THEY are blessed)...KS
I am sorry if I came accross like that. It was not my intention.
I don't doubt that you have felt what I refer to as unconditional love. I think we just have different descriptions for it.
I totally understand what you are saying about people misunderstanding what unconditional love is and leaving the door open to be abused or taken advantage of. But that is not about unconditional love. That is about peoples misinterpretation of it. And misunderstanding what it is. Some people think that it means turning the other cheek all the time, or being a doormat. Giving of yourself but giving nothing to yourself. That is not unconditional love. Not even remotely.
When you love and respect yourself first...this does not happen. You are then free to love unconditionally without fear of abuse. You will not allow yourself to be abused.
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still thinking
"if you love someone set them free; if they don't return, they never were yours".
I have always loved that saying...it is true.
I think it is important to keep it in context though. And to not push people away...as though it is some sort of test. I think sometimes people confuse this too.
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still thinking
The pamphlet discusses the fine line between being an enabler of a child with substance abuse problems, but justifying it in the name of UL. That is why some therapists introduced the term "tough love": to clarify the difference between UL and enabling behaviors vs a strategy that places boundaries on the child's behavior that earns a loving response (rather than expecting it; there's that sense of entitlement again).
Remember that a meth user has UL for their drug, and will often do ANYTHING to get that next high, putting 'chasing the dragon' above anything else, including family, their own health and teeth, even above their own lives. THAT'S the power and danger of unrequited UL: no matter how much you love "it", it will be worthless if it won't be loving you back....
Sol..you are right to clarify the difference. Enabling and unconditonal love are often confused.
But there isn't a fine line. One is healthy, the other isn't. You can see from the results of the unhealthy that it is not unconditional love at work. It is codependency. They are NOT the same. Although people struggling with codependency issues THINK they are and can't for the life of them understand why everthing keeps going horribly wrong.
Why doesn't love fix it all? Answer: Because what you are doing is NOT love, and love is not the cure for everything. But it is the cure for you, when applied to yourself first.