Scientific Careers and Race

by Quendi 85 Replies latest social current

  • Quendi
    Quendi

    As the originator of this thread, I thought I'd step in at this point. This discussion has covered a lot of ground and has advanced into territory beyond the starting thesis. But I am glad that it has because the posts of Razziel and stapler99 show that the outdated thinking of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries is still with us. Razziel advances the kind of philosophy social darwinists did, in effect arguing for the inequality of Man, and then complains that his real meaning is being obscured and distorted by those who disagree with him. That tells me we still have a long way to go. The arguments put forward by stapler99 and Razziel are the old positions advanced by the pseudo-science of eugenics in the twentieth century, dressed up in more temperate language.

    I have taught in high school. Band on the Run’s experience during her early education, sadly, is not uncommon and is still going on today. As a high school mathematics teacher I can tell you that math education is in very bad shape. I taught remedial math, pre-algebra and honors geometry and was simply appalled by what my students did not know. My remedial students couldn’t even do third-grade arithmetic. Out of fourteen students, eleven could not complete a 225-square multiplication table even though they were given ninety minutes to do so. At the opposite end of the spectrum, the honors geometry class had difficulty with the arithmetic of fractions. The text book in use did not mention Euclid and the axiomatic method of using definitions, postulates and theorems until the very end and then only in the most cursory fashion. Yet these kids were expected to take college mathematics and do well when the fact was they were completely unprepared to do work on that level.

    I am currently living in Alabama and some of my family want me to think about teaching in the public schools here. But public education in Alabama is a complete disaster, particularly in the city of Birmingham where I currently live. It was hardly good back in Colorado where I previously taught, but the situation there is light-years ahead of Alabama’s. I might do substitute teaching here, but I don’t know if I could tolerate the culture enough to teach full time.

    I would put both vigor and rigor in my classroom instruction. When I did this in Colorado, I encountered great resistance from parents and school administrators and I expect that would be multiplied many-fold in Alabama. The problem starts in the very first year of school. As BOTR noted, math education is cumulative, and if a poor foundation has been laid in the early years, it will handicap the student throughout her education. For all the talk of stressing fundamentals and basics in math education, its advocates often fail to realize that rigor and discipline are just as important. Without them, the other elements won’t have the desired impact.

    This particularly relates to the problem I raised at the start of this thread. We all know that economics plays a huge role in the quality of public education in the United States. But we must also resist the temptation to say it is the most important one. My parents attended segregated schools in Alabama in the 1940s and 1950s. Everything about the schools they attended was inferior to what even middle-class white kids had. Nevertheless, my parents and their schoolmates were expected to do their very best. Those segregated schools gave this country minds like Thurgood Marshall and Colin Powell and that was because education itself was revered and honored with teachers held in high esteem.

    If people of color are to take their place in the sciences, a place that is open and waiting for them, then they must demand that educators quit following the fads and psycho-babble that are the coin of the realm in public education. They have to hire good teachers and fully support their effort and determination to bring quality instruction back to the classroom. That means paying them what they’re worth. That means telling their children that their teachers must and will be respected. That means empowering teachers to cultivate the talents and gifts of those who can do the kind of work that will lead to careers in mathematics, science, engineering and technology. I wonder if that will happen.

    Quendi

  • Quendi
    Quendi

    @ botchtowersociety: That is an interesting list. I would like to make this point, however. When it comes to getting a college education in math, science and engineering, this country is flooded with foreigners. When I attended college both in Alabama and Colorado, I asked these foreign students why they chose to study in the United States. Their answers were almost always the same: the best facilities, instructors and teaching was in this country. As a matter of fact, my vector calculus professor at the University of Colorado was from China and he told me he never considered doing his post-graduate work anywhere else but the USA. A New Zealand friend said he chose studying here over Britain. I heard the same from Germans and other Europeans.

    Quendi

  • moshe
    moshe

    I have no issue with affirmitive action in opening doors for education- the issue I have is the allowances that are made after they enter the workforce. They had the same advanced education as everyone else, but some can't pull their weight. Due to affirmitive action that may have gotten them hired, the company makes allowances for their subpar work and "others" have to carry their load. They should have been weeded out during the company probationary period, but weren't.

    My UAW union had a black majority leadership and the plant had a black majority workforce. Whites were in the minority. They had special remedial classes at the union hall to help blacks pass the skilled trades entrance exams. No problem with that- the tests aren't that hard, IMO. Classes start, the black majority has disappeared- 90% are white. The black majority union made sure all of their race who could pass the tests got into the program. Speaking as an electrician here, after 4 years of the apprenticeship classes and OJT work, they graduated. They had the same teachers and studied the same textbooks as everyone else, they rotated departments and worked with the same journeyman. Now the rubber meets the road, they are journeyman and have to go to work and start fixing breakdowns and wiring and installing electrical equipment. How do they do? Not very well. They had a company rule- you could not walk away from a breakdown- you could be fired for walking off the job. I regularly saw black electricians walk away- I can't fix it, find someone else- and they let them do it. A white tradesman was not allowed by the white foreman to do that. We had one black electrician who was able to do top tier work (he came from the outside)- not one of the internally trained black electricians was able to do the work of the white peers. Electricity is unforgiving- it works or it doesn't. There is no- 80% is close and the equipment will operate- some jobs require perfection- science and technical fields require 100% . If you can't do that, then find another-easier field- like social work.

    It's not like being a lawyer and you got your retainer fee, even though you lost the case, or you only managed to get them a $20,000 settlement instead of a $100K, because your lawyering skills were weak- hey- the client got some money- you did win, just not so much. Or, the judge doesn't like your attorney ( he has see their work before)) and unbeknownst to you, your case is lost from the start- those damn procedural rules wielded so well by the other side hammered that lawyer again.

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    " Contra certain posters, I suspect intelligence is far less inherent (and far more environmentally malleable), than their comments seem to imply."

    Loved your post Q. When my husband was given the opportunity to transfer out of California he took it. What it meant for our children was being taken out of a failing school system (Oakland Unitfied) that touted what their kids could not do and placed into a school district in Indiana (Hamilton Southeastern) that demanded and expected their students to their best at all times. It was a relief and a joy to walk into those schools with my children, it was a joy to see the high level of parent participation (something that was severely lacking in Oakland) in activities other than sports, dancing, and talent shows. I had to moved my kids back to California but the solid foundation they received back in Indiana has helped the emensously and my husband and I were able to place them in a comparable school district.

    P.S. Afirmative action has never set well with me. Many a time folks have assumed that I got my jobs based on my skin color only to find that out that I do have skills and my work ethic was usually higher than their own. Yeah there are those who slide by because of AA but there are many others who are quite capable, they just need to be given the chance.

  • Heaven
    Heaven

    "But in the meantime, too many talented people aren't getting the encouragement they need to meet their potential."

    To further Billy's point here, I worked with a black woman year's ago who told me that one of her daughter's teachers told her daughter that she didn't need to try too hard as she would never amount to anything anyways.

    I was appalled. This really angered me. It's not just a lack of encouragement but in some cases, deliberate discouragement.

    In my industry (IT), we have a similar issue. Not a lot of black people or First Nations people. Lots of Asians though.

  • moshe
    moshe

    speaking of education- I have had a running battle with my , now 8th grade daughter over "math facts"- she still doesn't know all her multiplication and division tables - she could get maybe 95% right, never 100%. She knows at some point they will let them use calculators, so she has been skating by and her grades in math have been one grade letter lower than they could have been. I know her ADD is part of the issue, but she could have learned them by now- the education culture has allowed her to advance a grade each year without learning something that , in my generation, was required in grade school.

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety
    @ botchtowersociety : That is an interesting list.

    I put very little stock in it.

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety
    speaking of education- I have had a running battle with my , now 8th grade daughter over "math facts"- she still doesn't know all her multiplication and division tables - she could get maybe 95% right, nver 100%.

    My 5 yo knows how to add and subtract. We taught him. He starts kindergarten in a few weeks. If memory serves, few to none of the kids in his class will know this, so I am worried about intruction being too dumbed down for him. As for multiplication tables, my mother drove them into my brain in elementary school. I was taking Algebra in 8th grade. But my father laughed about it. In his country, what they taught him in 6th grade as normal math instruction was just as advanced as what they taught American kids in an advanced math class in 8th grade. He came to this country in 9th grade, not knowing English, and still managed to graduate at the top of his class and received acceptance to Cornell and a scholarship. His English grades started with "D", and became "A" in two years. His math grades were always "A." And this while pumping gas and changing oil after school to help pay the rent.

  • moshe
    moshe
    I put very little stock in it.

    At first glance, it appears that most white and asian homogenous countries ranked well, and at the bottom of the rankings were the black homogeneous countries.

    ---of course we all know that tables and statistics can be manipulated.

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    My 11 year old and my 9 year old are at top the of their grades in math. Joshua, the 9 year old with autism often gets bored because its too easy for him. Shane, my 11 year old, just loves math and has always done well in it. My daughter has struggles with math but was able to pull up her math grade to an A- minus in Algebra in her high school freshman. She has this laser focus to attend college. And my oldest took just about everything. I couldn't help him when he got to calculus and trig but he was always able to figure it out and was able to maintain solid Bs.

    I don't accept the notion that my children lack the brain power for math and science simply because of the skin color they inherited from my husband and I.

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