it just felt like being a bit presumptuos/ unthankful to believe it may just be me and not Jah.
Humility is a noble trait, but don't let it stifle free inquiry into reasonable explanations for observed phenomena.
What it takes to become an atheist.
by dontplaceliterature 90 Replies latest jw friends
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InterestedOne
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scotoma
Even if there IS a reward from some super agency I don't believe "everlasting life" is it. Forever is too long. After a thousand years you'd be on autopilot. You would just be going through the same routine. Exciting and novel information would be scarce. It could even become a long torturous "been there-done that" existence.
The longer you live the more hard wired your brain will get. How much Sudoku do you want to play? The only way "everlasting life" could be interesting is if you could erase the brain every so often. But that would be similar to death and rebirth. And that's already built into the system.
You die to make room for some fresh ideas.
There is a big difference between "time indefinite" and "everlasting life". We already live to some indefinite point. Make it count.
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still thinking
but why have a problem with those whose faith help them to be stronger, more at peace, more forgiving (not more than another person; but more than what they might be on their own)?
Because it is fake.....take away faith...and get a person who is like that......and you will find a real person.
If they can't do it on their own....it is not in them. They are behaving as though they have a split personality...I wouldn't trust that person. I would trust someone who is like that without a god, because thats who they are. ..if you cannot be forgiving without god...there is something seriously wrong.
Just like those false smiles at the kingdom hall...all for their god...no different whichever god you try to appease. fake is fake.
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cognizant dissident
Of course atheists have belief, hope and love.
We believe in things that make logical and rational sense. Things that have a certain weight of evidence to support them.
We have many hopes surrounding many different issues, but they are usually pinned upon outcomes that evidence shows have some probability of actually happening.
We also experience love and attachments that are as deep and strong as any of those experienced by theists. However the focus of our love and attachment is usually upon things for which there is evidence of existence.
It is not an act of some great virtue to focus one's human capacity for belief, hope and love on an object or person of dubious existence. Nor is it a virtue to imply that those who don't are somehow less then human or experience less than the full gamut of human emotion or experience.
I have come to the conclusion that there are different levels or standards of evidence that are considered "proof" by humans, not just for the existence of god, but for many things. Theists are part of the group that require a lower standard of evidence before they believe in something.
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cognizant dissident
In response to Tammy's post...
I don't have any problem with those who believe their faith makes them stronger, more peaceful, or more forgiving, but I would challenge the assumption that it's your belief that makes you so and that it is not part of your inherent human capacity.
I have come to realize that I still have those capacities within myself as an atheist, and that they are unchanged by my lack of belief. I would even go so far as to say that in myself those human capacities have been enhanced since I've become an atheist because they are no longer limited by the parameters of my previous belief in God and what is acceptable or not acceptable to him (a framework that is taught by others often contains limits imposed by others for their own agenda).
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tec
I don't have any problem with those who believe there faith makes them stronger, more peaceful, or more forgiving, but I would challenge the assumption that is your belief that makes you so and that it is not part of your inherent human capacity.
I'm glad to hear you have no problem with such people. Nor do I have a problem with the challenge :) However, the assumption, imo, would be that I do not know who I was before I came to know and listen to Christ... and how that person has grown after having learned from Him.
I have come to realize that I still have those capacities within myself as an atheist, and that they are unchanged by my lack of belief.
I am not challenging this. I do not see that I would change either... unless I learned something different from someone else. What is learned, is well... learned.
I would even go so far as to say that in myself those human capacities have been enhanced since I've become an atheist because they are no longer limited by the parameters of my previous belief in God and what is acceptable or not acceptable to him (a framework that is taught by others often contains limits imposed by others for their own agenda).
Well, I am not going to argue with you there. I was becoming quite judgmental during my time with the jw's. It was, in fact, one of the reasons i knew that it was wrong for me. Christ does not impose such limitations upon me... as religion and men often do.
Peace,
tammy
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cognizant dissident
I want to believe in God. Emotionally and even physically, it gave me great comfort to rest in the good graces of God and my family. However, I was cursed with two qualities that make it impossible for me to enjoy that comfort: a penchant for the rational and logical and a penchant for honesty.
As a result, I'm doomed to suffer the fate of all atheists, the certain knowledge of my demise and the demise of all I hold dear. I do take a little comfort in the words of Ram Daz, though: "Why should the thought of my non-existence bother me? I didn't exist for millions of years before I was born and it didn't bother me then!"
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cognizant dissident
Tammy, I wasn't making an assumption that you didn't know who and how you were before you came to Christ. I believe learning who and how we are and what's beneficial is a process that continues until we die.
That's why I have no problem with theists per se. If belief or religion are the scaffolding that helps people climb to a higher place then it can serve a useful purpose (and probably does for many). However when the building has reached its full height or capacity, then the scaffolding is no longer needed. My challenge is simply that it is possible to reach our full capacities as human beings without using belief in God as the scaffolding.
I'm not saying all atheists achieve that either, just as I don't say theists can't achieve it. I'm just putting it out there that the belief in God might be irrelevant in achieving full human potential and can even be a hindrance for many depending upon the limitations that belief puts upon them.
A radical thought for theists, I know, but just putting it out there as something to ponder upon.
Food for thought....
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smiddy
I was introduced to christianity at a very young age by parents who did not practice any religion,at about 12 or 13 I rebelled ,at 19 I was contacted by JW`s and converted, at 20,after 33 years witnessing inconsistincies,flip-flops,double standards,manipulations,hipocricy,unethical practices,downright deception,and all the while being told "leave it in Jehovah`s hands" I`d had enough of Jehovah`s Witnesses.After many years I became familiar with the computer , which helped me to realise{ critical thinking abilities} and of course this site.And after looking at the pros & cons of beleif in a GOD as portrayed in the christian bible ,I would say he is very wanting." GOD has been weighted in the balances and been found wanting"to use a biblical expression.
Theist`s put a lot emphasis on faith,in GOD,the history of the world is full of atrocities committed by faith in one god or another,the true and the false,according to one`s perception.
This is the tip of the iceberg of why I am an atheist
smiddy