LDS (Mormon) wheelers and dealers coming over tonight at 7 PST. What would you ask them?

by sabastious 47 Replies latest jw friends

  • cofty

    Last time I spoke to Mormon missionaries I asked them about plagiarism on the BOM.

    The gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke all contain a record of the Sermon on the Mount. They offer three similar but quite different accounts. One writer includes parts that the others leave out and so on. Actually I think they are contradictory but that's another thread.

    Mormons believe that after his resurection Jeus went to America and delivered a similar sermon. The sermon delivered to the people in America is delivered in a different language from the Aramaic Jesus spoke in Palestine and which was written down in Greek. Now when the gospels are translated out of greek into 17th century english (KJ version) we find three quite different accounts. When we read the parallel account in the BOM we find it is identical word for word to Matthew's version as found in the KJ.

    So here is what you have to believe to accept the book of mormon as genuine..

    That Jesus went to America and despite the people having different circumstances from the Jews of Palestine he delivered exactly the same sermon - he didn't change a single word, not one!

    Despite his speaking in a different language and his words being recorded in another language when the golden plates are traslated from this ancient language into 19th century english lo and behold it comes out identical to the 17th century English traslation of Matthews account of Jesus' sermon given in Palestine.

    But the smoking gun of plagerism is still to come. You know when the teacher was trying to work out who copied homework from who? The real evidence is when you are both stupid enough to make exactly the same mistakes. Well keep going to the lords prayer. In all old manuscripts it ends before the line in the King James version of Matthew about "for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever amen" Clearly these lines were borrowed from Revelation sometime to make Jeus words into a piece of liturgy perhaps first in the margin of a manuscript and later it got included in the text. It does not appear in any manuscript before the middle ages. Well what do you know .... it's right there in the book of mormon version of the sermon.

    Golden plates my arse!

  • designs

    Do they also own stock in Fruit Of The Loom, just curious.

  • sabastious
    Now that you've had your first study, would you consider studying more and visiting the tabernacle for further education into the one true religion as enlightened to Joseph Smith?

    No to become a Mormom I would have to abandon my belief of univeralism. However, I did enjoy having them over and look forward to next week. I need a lot more than two hours to get a complete opinion.

    Nice work, and thanx for the reporting back.

    Thanks, talesin. I felt that more people than just me could benefit from such information. Maybe I'll get them to agree to come on my YouTube channel.


  • sabastious

    Cofty that was great! I will use that next week.


  • Jim_TX

    I have some Mormons in my family... an aunt (who passed away a few years ago), and a cousin (who is also now deceased). I was around them for a while, and have observed a bit about mormons.

    They said it's a myth that they don't drink caffein and they both shared their favorite caffinated drinks with me. Apparently it's just ixnay on the offeecay.

    I will disagree with this one. I think that there are various groups of Mormons, that believe differently from other groups - very similar to the JWs. I know that my aunt who was in her 90's when I re-connected with that part of the family, would drink coffee in the mornings, and sometimes in the evening. Caffeine is forbidden in Mormon religion, in all forms, and that includes teas.

    My aunt would just wave her hand, while drinking her cup of coffee and say that her doctor had told her that she should drink coffee for a pick-me-up. The implication was that it was doctor-ordered, so it was okay. Of course, she never named the doctor, he was always referred to as 'my doctor'.

    Her daughter (my cousin) and her husband, if present, would go quiet, and not say anything, but I could tell that they were cringing inside.

    Whenever we went out to a restaurant to eat, my cousin and her husband - both very deep into the religion - would get un-caffeinated drinks. If a soda was ordered, it would be a sprite or 7-up. Otherwise, water.

    Basically, the mormons may be telling you about caffeine not being forbidden, much like a JW would tell their 'bible study' that they do not shun ex-jws. Then you learn different, later, after you've joined.

    ...but one thing is for sure, they are very ignorant to what goes on behind the Kingdom Hall walls.

    Yes, and you are very ignorant what goes on behind the walls of a Mormon temple. (I've been inside one, and they have some odd customs.)

    One of their quirky beliefs deals with their 'sealing' of themselves to each other. I do not know that much about it, but when they do it, they believe it is for eternity, and take it very seriously. It costs money to have done (cha-ching), and they can have dead relatives 'sealed' into their family, even if they (the dead relly) do not really want it. I may not have that bit 100% correct, but it is one of those weird customs and beliefs that can cause interesting issues if a married couple gets divorced, or one of them passes on, and the other goes to date again - and they are 'sealed' to their previous mate.

    Good Luck on your converting to Mormonism.


    Jim TX

  • TD


    They said they didn't know what Jamesian English was, but they said it sounded cool and they'd like to hear more about it.

    Quite the scholars. --Jamesian English is the 16th and 17th century English of the KJV. It's not what was spoken in the mid-1800's when the translation of the BOM allegedly took place.

    They said those words were utilized by God for a purpose.

    So God invented the word 'Synagogue' and not the Jews who needed to converse in Greek? If God invented it, then why did it take Alexander's conquest of the Holy Land for it to be coined?

    A Mormon could claim that Joseph Smith used words he was familiar with when he did the translation, but this will pretty much knock the legs out from under any explanation for the Jamesian English

    They said that the painting was merely an artist's depiction of the events and said that there is no proof that the American Israelites used tile in their architecture. They gave a few examples of ancient American artifacts with the ten commandments on them and such.

    Bullshit. The painting is drawn from both the BOM and a specific narrative in the BOM by a believing Mormon. The narrative of King Noah describes how he built a beautiful palace decorated with silver and gold and all manner of precious things. It's true that 'Tile' is not specifically mentioned in the BOM, but it does mention 'Potters clay' (2 Nephi 27:27) indicating a familiarity with the process itself.

    Other durable objects specifically mentioned by name in the BOM include:

    Jewels (Two times)

    Steel (Five times)

    Gold (Sixty three times)

    Silver (Fifty Three times)

    Copper (Eight times)

    Brass (Thirty Seven times)

    Chains (Seventeen times)

    Swords (One Hundred Fifty Seven times)

    Shields (Forty Six times)

    Breastplates (Eleven times)

    Spears (Two times)

    Bricks (One time)

    Cement (Four times)

    Money (Fourteen times - Strong implication of silver and gold as some form of currency)

    Every civilization that has developed these materials and items has left artifacts behind. You can see and sometimes even touch Egyptian artifacts of this nature that were already ancient at the time of Christ. When confronted with this, Mormons will cast about and try to point to extremely primitive attempts at metalurgy from the indigenous peoples of South America. --Don't let them jump six thousand miles from Palmyra, NY to Santiago, Chili in a single sentence

  • TD

    Why does the BOM contain direct translations of Greek idioms like, 'Verily verily I say unto you"?

    To flesh this out a little bit: An idiom used in the Bible only by John is 'αμεν αμεν λεγω σοι' If you translate it literally, word for word you get "Truly, truly I say to you."

    But in this case, a word for word translation is not the best. It's an idiom and really needs to be translated for idiomatic content. That's why even literal translations today translate it, "I tell you the truth" or "Most truly I tell you" or something to that effect.

    But a poor farm boy who didn't know Greek wouldn't know that. If he was borrowing expressions directly from the KJV, he could easily introduce a poorly translated Greek idiom ( Jamesian Engilsh no less...) from what is allegedly a non-Greek source, (Reformed Egyptian, whatever that is...) which is exactly what appears to have happened.

  • RubaDub

    I would ask them when and where the Blowing of the Horns began.

    After they ramble on a bit, just sit back, smile and tell them it was in Cedar Point Ohio in 1922.

    They will likely be intimidated by your Biblical knowledge and never return again.

    Rub a Dub

  • sabastious
    But in this case, a word for word translation is not the best. It's an idiom and really needs to be translated for idiomatic content. That's why even literal translations today translate it, "I tell you the truth" or "Most truly I tell you" or something to that effect.

    Thanks for the elaboration and responses TD, it's greatly appreciated. I do remember one thing they said about the BOM now after I read your posts. They said that the BOM is only a single translation which they use to suport it's uniqueness against older sacred texts of other faiths. They seem to hold it above the Bible (just my opinion so far) because the Bible was subject to "telephone games" whereas the BOM was not.


  • Londo111

    Thanks, Sabastious!

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