Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One 754 Replies latest watchtower bible

snare&racket

Also how can it be free will ? Jews and now Christians say god offered....
a) humans can obey god and see how things go
or
b) humans can rule by themselves and see how things go
but that is not what happened, humans chose b, god made them instantly imperfect, took them out of a paradise, made them diseased and ill, made them toil to survive and pained when giving birth AND gave them an inclination to do wrong, to sin. He made sure they failed according to the biblical account! He rigged the game in his favour like a dodgy fair stall attendant!
How was that comparable (a to b) or free wiLl? Option a did not equal option b!
Free will would have been to leave them be as perfect creatures in a paradise without god demanding attention and worship and petty rules about fruit like a spoilt child. How do you not see the idiocy of this bronze age human explination for life, death, illness, birth pains, strugglies for life in a harsh enviroment and human interaction.
***** Eden is equivelant to putting a mouse in a maze with the option of left or right and calling it free will, where as free will would really mean to take the mouse out of the maze....
FREE WILL DOES NOT EXIST. If you lived the last 24hrs over sgain (without knowing you were) you would make the exact same desicions as you did the first time for the exact same reasons. External influences and past experiences contribute to the desicions you make , you will always make the same desicions in life...,therfore how could a god judge you for them ? There is no crossroads... On tuesday at 8:13am on 0ct 1st 2013 you will always fancy cornflakes for breakfast, because you are hungry, your wife put the box out on the table, you saw a cornflakes advert on tv the night before etc etc etc etc no different to deciding to steal a car, you needed to pay rent, you saw a car you knew you could steal as your uncle taught you some weeks back and he told you where to take it, you think about it being wrong, you think about how it will solve your money problems...*smash*...you break the window... Replayed over snd over that person will ALWAYS steal the car everytime. How can you be judged for inevitible actions? Adam and Eve would always eat the fruit!
By the way this is not fate or pre-written destiny, it is a philosophical free will topic called DETERMINISM.
Stick in your heels and scream that free will exists all you wish, but it is just words, neither daily life or the deal offered in eden was free will. Biologists theorised we evolved the assumption of free will as it is advantageous in our consideration of consequences. Hence when asked if he believed in free will, Hitchens replied ironically "no but I have no choice but to believe it"
It isnt complicated ....stop fighting these obvious biblical flaws! ... Start being honest with yourself. Spending years looking for loopholes in peoples comments so as to not answer them or quoting an out of context shepherd/fishermans reply from ancient jewish scrolls , does not answer the issues it just allows you to throw a blanket over such questions in your mind.
You are humble, sweet and loyal tec, you are intelligent and dedicated.... But you repeatedly cover your eyes and ears and play dumb when ever someone gets close to what you have decided to put on a pedastal as absoloute truth, above all other logic, reasoning and evidence. Don't deny that, I have seen you reason from the bible over evidence many times. that is your chloice, and I am sad to see people do it, for in doing so they switch off their minds in my opinion. That being said you can, but dont keep dipping into logic, reasoning, philosophy and science when you already know your beleifs contradict them and that you hold such human mechanisms for truth below the scrolls you have decided are from god and therefore above modern means of enlightenment. The conflicts in this stance are obvious immediately, for the bible is constantly proven false in sll areas...history, science, medicine etc.
There is OBVIOYSLY nothing wrong with having FAITH in your beliefs, but dont diminish that faith and climb into hot water by trying to find ways to make your faith...FACT. By taking a stand with the bible, you can only have faith and leave the facts to those who hold science and reasoning over religious texts And at best marry facts of modern man with what is said in the bible. But you can't try to use the bible to outweigh conflicts with modern facts, not for everyone that rejects your holy book of choice.
many scientists are religious and square their science away by admitting the bible is simply wrong, whether it be adam and eve 6000 yrs ago and free will or talking donkeys or men with super strength from their long hair etc....
snare x
jam

tammy; Have your faith been shaken just a little bit here???
adamah

TEC said-
Okay Adamah, but we do not live in a vanilla or chocolate ice cream world. (though eating the ice cream itself has a consequence... just not necessarily a negative one... unless you eat a tub of ice cream, then you're likely to feel/be sick - would that mean that you had no free will in deciding not to eat the tub of ice cream?)
You asked for an example, and even said it didn't exist: I gave you one example.
If you had read my article on Adam and Eve, you'd already know that some Christians refer to 'conscience matters' as "free will" decisions, since the decision is not prohibited by secular law, God's word, etc. Any typical JW "conscience matter" is considered a "free will" choice, since God's Will isn't stated on the matter, and the person is free to make their choice, based on their best interests and personal preferences.
TEC said- In this world, there are things that cause harm. You think that takes away our free will?
The alternatives SHOULD be more or less equal, and equally-free of consequences/influence/duress. If the alternatives offered don't fit the criteria, then the term "free will" doesn't apply to the choices presented.
I'm pretty sure your ice cream example is one of limited free will though. Where you are presented only certain options. Rather than being given a choice between all foods: ice cream... or... big greasy hamburger... or well, any kind of food imaginable. Some are bad for you; some are good for you.
Read the above again, as you're moving the goalposts on a very specific scenario/example of a 'free will' choice (by introducing your new made-up terms, such as "limited free will"....)
Adam
tec

Perhaps just the opposite Jam... because I have learned to rely upon Christ alone, and certainly relying upon Him more than upon my own reason, etc... and some things I would not think to ask about on my own have come up, and then the answers I have recieved have helped me grow in deeper understanding.
Peace,
tammy
cofty

There is no reasoning with faith. It is immune to reality.
adamah

TEC said- You changed your post... you do that a lot, lol. I don't think your change makes a difference though.
Unfortunately, I'm unable to post initially with formatting, so I have to go back to add it in (eg BOLD, ITALICS, etc), since the formatting bar only appears in edit mode (dunno why it's happening).
TEC said- Except... just because someone is trying to sway your decision, does not mean that you have to allow them to sway your decision. You still choose whether to allow that or not; or listen to them or not.
BY DEFINITION, ANY ATTEMPT to influence your decision is what determines if it's proper to characterize it a "free will" decision.
A mugger cannot say, "Give me your $ or your life!" and then say, "Never-mind: I didn't mean it!" and run off: he still held a gun on you, and would go to jail for attempted robbery. Your decision NOT to give him your purse (and his decision NOT to kill you, but to run off....) doesn't suddenly transform his initial death threat into making your choice one that is made under "free will".
Adama
snare&racket

Likewise as with adam, i cant edit until after I post, so my posts are awful to read and full of errors. Also I have to post in good time or my mobile browser throws me out and i lose the post. So i type fast and have to edit after .... A bad combination Sorry x
tec

Well, Adamah, you are entitled to your definition of free will. There are more out there than the one, and even the links that you gave me show that.
I think it is moot. Because the fact does remain that man is free to choose whatever he wants to choose. You are of the opinion that this is different than free will... well, again, you are entitled to your opinion. A man can teach his child what harms them and what benefits them, telling them the truth in all matters... but that does not mean that he has taken away their free will.
Adam and Eve were free to choose. They freely chose to eat something that God warned them would cause them to die. They made that choice... and they even made it despite His warning against it.
That should show you how very free they were to decide for themselves and to choose their own path.
Unfortunately, they chose to place their faith in the serpent, who told them what they wanted to hear... instead of God, who told them the truth.
Man also makes decisions that bring harm to himself and/or others. Despite God teaching/warning against those decisions and their consequences.
Peace,
tammy
snare&racket

Tec can you explain away my points about adam and eve and free will?
a) humans can obey god and see how things go
or
b) humans can rule by themselves and see how things go

but that is not what happened, humans chose b, god made them instantly imperfect, took them out of a paradise, made them diseased and ill, made them toil to survive and pained when giving birth AND gave them an inclination to do wrong, to sin. He made sure they failed according to the biblical account! He rigged the game in his favour like a dodgy fair stall attendant!
How was that comparable (a to b) or free will? Option a did not equal option b!
Free will would have been to leave them be as perfect creatures in a paradise without god demanding attention and worship and petty rules about fruit like a spoilt child. How do you not see the idiocy of this bronze age human explination for life, death, illness, birth pains, strugglies for life in a harsh enviroment and human interaction.
***** Eden is equivelant to putting a mouse in a maze with the option of left or right and calling it free will, where as free will would really mean to take the mouse out of the maze....
tec

Give me a minute, Snare, to go through your post.
Peace,
tammy

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

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