Do JWs have a biblically normative relationship with Jesus christ?

by Vanderhoven7 93 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

designs

This is kind of like Rick Perry's idea of schooling
tec

Carmen.
Oh and... one for you too Designs ;)
Peace,
Tammy
myelaine

dear Tammy...
you said: "So again, as in anything, one has to look into matters for themselves. (And if you have faith in One who can answer, then ask Him"....and..."I DO enjoy hearing a Jewish perspective because it is not 'clouded' in some of the things that 'christianity' has taught and dogmatized. So who knows the truth, other than the Truth, Himself? If I have questions, I ask Him. Anything else, from anyone, is equally prone to mistakes, misinterpretatin; simple belief or thoughts. Including my own thoughts/beliefs. Now some of those might be more or less reasonable than others... but again, there is no actual authority behind personal interpretation and personal reasoning.
To KNOW something; you must learn from someone who KNOWS... instead of someone who THINKS they know."...
what you said above sounds like circular reasoning...those of the early church (before the bible canon) who walked and talked with Jesus Christ have passed on their knowledge orally from one group of believers to another group or individual. These had also asked and prayed for discernment and knowledge before they taught others but the answers that they received allowed them to be in agreement with others...many others...you can call it dogma but the church called it protection from false teachers.
I've noticed that you do seem to put more stock in (and encourage others to believe what they "hear") what you have heard "personally" even if it disagrees with the majority...why is that?...(do you understand that is exactly what a spirit of division would do?) Why is it that you would "agree" to a spirit like this?...I just don't understand why you think your course is reasonable; that now, when we are told that there will be deceiving spirits you go after those [spirits] who would disagree with orthodoxy.
the apostle paul said this to the corinthians at the time he was talking about divisions in the Body and those who would go after those [spirits]who would divide: For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the END of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men. We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! corinthians 4:9-11
love michelle
ShadesofGrey

I will be quoting one of my mentors here.
Some people think that their denominational beliefs are more truer than the word of God and therefore try and make the word conform to their denominational belief. This is why I am non-denominational because it puts nothing between me and understanding the Word of God. And I have taught Carmen to do the same.

When a Christian allows the Holy Spirit to be their guide more than man then they will find more truth concerning the word than allowing a denominational belief be their guide. Now does that mean Me or Carmen don;t go to churches that may teach things we find wrong doing it this way? Nope. There are no perfect churches perfect denominational beliefs. So we have to filter out what does not belong while trying to hold on to what the Holy Spirit tells us.
Doing this I can tell you, and so can Carmen, that we have found more truth about the Word of God than we could have ever learned through man made denominations. And would we give this up to be like most Christians? Nope. We have found a direct line to God through listening to the Holy Spirit and that is something that can reveal to a person more truth than they ever thought possible. If you found that type of connection to what you seek would you change?
Me again:
I feel His spirit directing me almost every day. 1 John 2:27 For me, the freedom of being led by His spirit is amazing. Christ's Spirit started leading me when I accepted Him as my only mediator and I intend for it to stay that way. In fact, "I will never listen to those men again, only to you Lord" is exactly what I prayed. And His Spirit granted me joy and my heart began to sing and I understood unconditional love for the first time in my life.I know that I have been saved, and baptized in Holy Spirit. My Lord has promised that if I ask for Holy Spirit I will receive it. Luke 11:13 He has also promised that no one will snatch me away from Him, so I know that He is guiding me. And the result of His Spirit? Exactly as He promised. Galatians 5:22-23 I will never turn away from Him in order to follow what men say. John 10:1-5; 27-28
Tammy is causing divisions? No! Quite the opposite! If only everyone would follow the words in these scriptures:
1 Corinthians 12:4-11 4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. see also 1 Corinthians 2:2 and Romans 14
tec

Thank you for sharing that, Carmen.
I like those quotes in Corinthians also. We are different members of the Body of Christ... and He places us as He and His Father will... not as we will.
And would we give this up to be like most Christians? Nope.
Nope is right :)
what you said above sounds like circular reasoning...those of the early church (before the bible canon) who walked and talked with Jesus Christ have passed on their knowledge orally from one group of believers to another group or individual. These had also asked and prayed for discernment and knowledge before they taught others but the answers that they received allowed them to be in agreement with others...many others...you can call it dogma but the church called it protection from false teachers.
No circular reasoning. The Holy Spirit is the authority. We can learn from writings, witness accounts, scripture, what have you... things that have been passed on to us(but some of those things have been misunderstood, unclear in translation). So how can we know what 'dogma' might have come from truth and what might have come as a result of false teaching, without asking the Truth, Himself? Then once we ask Christ, and receive an answer, should we doubt what He tells us because it does not comply with this dogma or that dogma?
I've noticed that you do seem to put more stock in (and encourage others to believe what they "hear") what you have heard "personally" even if it disagrees with the majority...why is that?...(do you understand that is exactly what a spirit of division would do?) Why is it that you would "agree" to a spirit like this?...I just don't understand why you think your course is reasonable; that now, when we are told that there will be deceiving spirits you go after those [spirits] who would disagree with orthodoxy.
Well, just because something is believed by the majority does not make it right. Just the opposite is often the case. The majority of the Jews didn't believe that 'Jesus' was the Christ. Did that make them right? In fact, I believe Christ taught that the path was narrow and that few find it. So numbers don't really mean anything. Majority, minority, I don't really pay attention to either one.
How is it that you think orthodo x y is truth? How do you know it is the same as what Christ and the apostles taught and lived? That the false teachings didn't get their hooks into that; that beliefs and traditions altered from the truth throughout the centuries?
the apostle paul said this to the corinthians at the time he was talking about divisions in the Body and those who would go after those [spirits]who would divide: For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the END of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole
universe, to angels as well as to men. We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! corinthians 4:9-11
Christ taught that we should listen and worship in spirit. So it is not that - the spirit - which is wrong. You just have to test the 'spirit of' what you are listening to or hearing. I think you test it against orthodo x y, yes? If I am uncertain, then I can test against the teachings of Christ; against mercy and forgiveness; and always love. I have no reason to test anything that I hear from Christ against denominational teachings or dogma. I couldn't do that. It feels too wrong to me. In truth, I don't have to test what I hear from Him at all... I just recognize His voice. His voice is never outside of mercy, forgiveness, or love.
The only time I mess up is when I listen to someone else, including just myself.
Peace,
Tammy
designs

'the majority of the Jews didn't believe that 'Jesus' was the Christ. Did that make them right?' Yes
myelaine

ShadesofGrey... I don't think that Tammy is causing divisions...I think that she doesn't recognize a spirit of division for what it is. dear Tammy... you said: " Christ taught that we should listen and worship in spirit. So it is not that - the spirit - which is wrong. You just have to test the 'spirit of' what you are listening to or hearing. I think you test it against orthodo x y, yes? If I am uncertain, then I can test against the teachings of Christ; against mercy and forgiveness; and always love. I have no reason to test anything that I hear from Christ against denominational teachings or dogma. I couldn't do that. It feels too wrong to me. In truth, I don't have to test what I hear from Him at all... I just recognize His voice. His voice is never outside of mercy, forgiveness, or love. The only time I mess up is when I listen to someone else, including just myself. " ...but it seems that you will listen to any voice that doesn't disagree with your voice, but just because a voice speaks gently to you doesn't mean that it is the voice of the Good Shepherd. The voice AGuest hears, her lord who has chosen her to relate his thoughts to fellow posters here is unkind to any who say they don't agree with her. that voice seems to want AGuest to argue for the sake of arguement. I recall once when she was "led" to argue against Leolaia and Narkissos about the meaning of arch in the word archangel...that nonsense went on and on and it did NOTHING to bring glory to God or Jesus Christ. She did the same thing when argueing about the astringent properties of water. I don't need to show you how often she has called people "idjits"...I don't need to show you how her posts are peppered with malice towards the orthodox church or any organized religion. I don't need to show you how she insinuates that neither the bible nor any of the church fathers can be trusted because they only listen to man...naturally, if everyone would only "hear" her lord everything would be straightened out for the better...we would all agree with her!!! Now, my point is this...her lord is essentially leading her away from any normal communion with others who would want to follow Jesus Christ...Jesus Christ is in people who are leading thier lives in service to others in His name, Jesus Christ is in people who have led HOLY lives trying to imitate Him...being daily sanctified by the Spirit...cleansed of the filth in the world. AGuest swears that her lord is not part of a trinity...nor is his name Jesus...nor would he lead anyone to read the bible...and it is because of these things she says as well that I doubt very much that her lord is the Christ spoken of as the Saviour sent into the world, the passover Lamb...and the reason you should doubt too is because (among other things) her lord IS causing a division of the Spirit that has indwelt the church...like it or not the orthodox has been convicted by the Holy Spirit of the truth of the trinity and has taught this to their congregants for almost 2000 years...only a spirit of division would "resurface" at this time to draw people away...if the "mind of Christ" wants people protected from preditors the safest place to be is ensconced in a sheep pen...not wandering around on a spiritual journey "listening" for a voice. I had said before that I thought that you were in danger of being mislead by the same spirit that is misleading AGuest...you still are...you test the spirit by love, forgiveness and mercy...but do you test the spirit by truth?...Jesus was speaking the truth when He said that people would die in their sins (john 8:24)...you are not being non-judgemental by not telling people this you are over-riding the previous judgement that God has made...the gospel stalls at the start line if you wont stand to tell people they have been judged...BUT...there IS Good News. Have you ever asked yourself why AGuest sees her lord as a dead carcass that people gather around to eat?...don't you think that is contrary to scripture? to reason even?...wasn't Jesus going to give His disciples life?...life that He had within Himself from everlasting? If this makes sense to you then why?... You should know that what you do naturally doesn't lead to life...being nice, loving and merciful is not the same as repenting. There is a way that seems right to a man...but its end is the way of death. proverbs 14:12 I know that it goes against your idea of freedom...but, in fact, Jesus did set people over you who are to look out for you...and even if you don't agree with them doesn't mean that they are not there for your protection...like a child who wanders would be brought back into the yard by a loving guardian...that is what the Holy Spirit would have me do in regard to you...and AGuest.
love michelle
tec

Michelle, I'm really not going to respond to all of that. Especially not the things about Shelby. I know you don't understand the things she says much of the time, and sometimes disagree based on a misunderstanding, and other times based on actual disagreement, but without the original conversation at hand for me to look at, then I'm not even going to try to interpret. Besides all of that, I don't speak for her. Please just discuss what you want to discuss with me, regarding things I have said or shared my faith in. Thank you.
You did not answer my question to you, and I can't really know where you're coming from if you don't do a bit of sharing too.
How is it that you think orthodoxy is truth? How do you know it is the same as what Christ and the apostles taught and lived? That the false teachings didn't get their hooks into that; that beliefs and traditions altered from the truth throughout the centuries?
Peace to you,
Tammy
ShadesofGrey

I have seen things I disagree with. I remember James 5:16 "The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results."
Thank you for the reminder.
Love,
Carmen
Vanderhoven7

I am reviving this thread to ask a question or two:

I am talking to a witness who says JWs talk to Jesus and say things like "Thank you Jesus for your sacrifice..." but that they do not pray...just talk. I don't see a distinction between talk and prayer since prayer is talking to God.

Is is legit for witnesses now to address Jesus Christ directly (talk to him)? Is there anything in the literature on this?

Vander

Do JWs have a biblically normative relationship with Jesus christ?

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