by Vanderhoven7 93 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
So what do you tell your fellow christians about not having the Jewish messiah 'correct'.
There is a not so small amount of Jewish literature on angelology, the Samaritans and the Essenes incorporated concepts from the captivity period; Dead Sea Scroll 11Q13 has the most descriptive issue detailed.
Are you Christians here at the point where you can contemplate that the Messiah of the New Testament was the product of Hellenistic influences.
Designs: In keeping within the parameters of this thread, perhaps you could tell me if anything in the Greek or Hebrew scriptures encourages relational interaction (i.e. calling on, communicating with, worshipping) invisible spirit beings other than God...as you have indicated you did as a Jehovah Witness?
Relative honor to God through an angel was
reproved in these words: "Be careful! Do not
do that!...Worship God."
Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9, NWT)
'Let God Be True', p. 151
If it is true, as you say, that you did in fact worship Jesus Christ, you were in opposition to the organization's post 1954 teachings, you were either acting in ignorance or disobedience. Which is it?
V- as you may know my grandparents were original Bible Students so worship of Jesus in that context was something I knew about. You are also aware that JWs view the catagory of Arch Angel as different from any other class of angel so if they chose to go back and retranslate Hebrews 1 to say 'worship' it would be in keeping with their theology. JWs also hold to the approbation of honor with regard to their idea of a Messiah ie like the Dead Sea Scroll mentioned the Divine like Being is given all of the perogatives of God by God. So to a JW this is not angel worship.
Care to answer the questions I asked.
Are you Christians here at the point where you can contemplate that the Messiah of the New Testament was the product of Hellenistic influences.
I recently posted what I hoped was a thought provoking consideration of this in my thread VAMPIRES IN THE CHURCH.
Careful study of the Maccabean period (102 years) repays the time you'll spend on this. The success of Jews in self-rule pumped adrenal juice into the Messiah myth. The SEPTUAGINT has 39 instances. The legend of how the Septuagint (the ONLY bible the christian/Jesus/neo-rabbinicals possessed) came to be pinpoint Hellenic influence (Ptolemy, Alexander's general).
Were it not for the Maccabean autonomy for that brief window of time the Jews would not have so rabidly embraced Jesus as Messianic solution to their political situation.
Terry- well done, I did some additional research on it, always fun getting down the Encyclopedea volumns.
Designs: Perhaps others might be interested in going beyond the parameters of this discussion. I am not.
What I am willing to discuss and support, is every assertion I have made on this thread. You have countered and continue to counter my assertions...so that's quite enough to deal with frankly.
<<my grandparents were original Bible Students so worship of Jesus in that context was something I knew about.>>
What your grandparents did is irrelevant to the discussion. You said you practiced Jesus worship. You called on Jesus; you prayed to Jesus.... Were you talking about something you did prior to 1954? Let's be clear here Designs. I get enough doublespeak from the JWs I encounter in person and online. I don't need it or expect it from XJws.
If you were talking about your personal practice prior to 1954, fine. After 1954, you were practicing either in ignorance or disobedience. Which was it?
"Should we worship Jesus?
...the answer to the above question must be that no distinct worship is to be rendered to Jesus Christ now glorified in heaven.
Our worship is to go to Jehovah God. However, we show the proper regard for God's only-begotten Son by rendering our worship to God through and in the name of Jesus Christ. Even now when we kneel in prayer, as Paul did according to Ephesians 3:14-19, we offer prayer in the name of Jesus Christ in obedience to his own directions (John 15:16; 16:23-26), but the prayer itself is addressed, not to Jesus, but to God his Father. In this way we keep things in their relative positions." Watchtower 1954 Jan 1 p.31
"... Jehovah's witnesses say that it is unscriptural for worshipers of the living and true God to render worship to the Son of God, Jesus Christ" Watchtower 1964 Nov 1 p.671
"Reverent adoration should be expressed only to God. To render worship to anyone or anything else would be a form of idolatry, which is condemned in both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. . Accordingly, true Christians do well to direct their worship only to Jehovah God, the Almighty." Awake! 2000 Apr 8 pp.26,27
"Though some claim that prayer may properly be addressed to others, such as to God's Son, the evidence is emphatically to the contrary." Insight on the Scriptures Volume 2 p.667
Fair enough.
The patient needs the doctor and the doctor needs the patient.
The patient is the sufferer.
The doctor must be paid.
Where is the need for emotion in that transaction?
How was Adam, a non-suffering "perfect" person with a lovely provisional garden and a non-suffering "patient" to view Jehovah as a Doctor?
It was not until Adam was faced with a "wound" that he sought remedy. (Knowing right and wrong vs ignorance) (equality with God).
Here the introduction to JESUS is made in prophetic utterance (so say christians).
The disease afflicting humanity was introduced by the viral INFORMATION from Satan. (You won't surely die.) (He knows....)
Where does an EMOTIONAL CONNECTION enter in to this transaction? Doctor/patient?
The christian-greek scriptures INJECTS "love" as a MOTIVE into the relationship between Himself and the patient.
JESUS suffers FOR us out of LOVE.
Jehovah and the 10 Commandments tell us OBEY. It never uses the term: LOVE.
Jesus gives us 2 commandments both of which begin with LOVE.
JESUS loves and is, therefore, lovable.
JEHOVAH requires OBEDIENCE and is, therefore, FASCIST dictator. (Oh, yes: morally Good fascist dictator, okay?)
What Jews suffered when they OBEY was protection FROM the God Jehovah. They kept their slate clean of infractions and punishments. No heaven was promised as reward.
When Christians LOVE Jesus he takes no notice of their personal failings. He LOVES and rescues them from death.
Who offers the better relationship?
Jehovah's Witnesses cling to the Fascist Doctor whom you earn protection from by keeping your slate clean. The leaders reflect this austere quality of benign dictatorship.
Christians cling to the LOVING shepherd who ventures out to find them in their lost condition to embrace them and carry them home.
THIS IS THE RELATIONSHIP that has been offered in MODERN TIMES by, perhaps, a majority of mainstream churches. It is not historically consonant, but, it has been effective. This is the Jesus that has been for sale during our own lifetime.
This sort of Christianity makes the Watchtower Society want to puke.
The Watchtower Society uses Jesus as a necessary poster boy to soften their hard-edged Doctor-Patient view of true religion.
Make no mistake about it--if they LOVED Jesus they would be called Jesus Witnesses.
Their Jehovah reflects their own personality. Obey or pay the price.
hello!...
a few more thoughts I'd like to add regarding my last posts about the church (watchmen) seeing eye to eye or face to face (agreed/united) and singing (teaching) together...the chapters I had quoted in isaiah are in amongst the chapters which tell us about the suffering Servant chosen by God to bring israel back to God and be a light to the nations, free prisoners yet will be dispised by many. A Servant who will be an effective teacher. Yet rejected. A Servant appointed to proclaim good tidings. (Isaiah 49-61) Jesus seems to summerize in this account in John 13:6-8 Then He came to Simon Peter. And Peter said to Him, “Lord, are You washing my feet?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”
Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!”
Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”
I hear the statement "we can agree to disagree" on this forum regularily...which means you can't come to agreement...amos 3:3...if the Holy Spirit uses the church and the written word to teach people in hopes that they will "see" the living Word, how will we be effective if we can't agree on this?...how will anybody "see" Jesus in this ummm...disagreement?
the bible instructs us that biblically normative worship calls for unity. (ephesians 4:15-16) it also states that any that had gone out from that unity (of the body) were not of the body. (1 john 2:19)
When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. acts 2:1-4
***back in the day when israel was united, all israel were 12 tribes***
And Elijah came to all the people, and said, “How long will you falter between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal (there were 450 priests of OTHER gods), follow him.” But the people answered him not a word.
Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me.” So all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down. And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, “Israel shall be your name.” Then with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD; and he made a trench around the altar large enough to hold two seahs of seed.
And it came to pass, at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near and said, “LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that You are God in Israel and I am Your servant, and that I have done all these things at Your word. Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that You are the LORD God, and that You have turned their hearts back to You again.”
Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench. Now when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The LORD, He is God! The LORD, He is God!” (Amen!!)
and IMMEDIATELY there was the sound of ABUNDANCE of rain for the people!!
love michelle
V- I was a rebel and started planning my exit
Now you used 'normative' in the thread title so that needs to be explored. Clearly the Jewish messiah is different from the Christian messiah and required none of the worship the NT outlines. Jesus of Nazareth described in the Gospels was not 'normative' as many have pointed out. So really the onus of spiritism is on the Christians who deJudaized themselves, but that is what happens when you Hijack another's religion. What do they call it mishigas (yiddish).
