An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  TheUbermensch

  Well, to be fair, most contemporary Christians ignore the Old Testament, I was stating an argument against modern Christianity's God which is usually a loving God.

  However, if we are wrong about the loving quality of God then could we possibly be wrong about other qualities? And who would wish to worship the God of the Old Testament? " The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Dawkins.

  And if God isn't perfectly good it goes back to

  A person is justified in believing that X does not exist if

  (1) all the available evidence used to support the view that X exists is shown to be inadequate; and

  (2) X is the sort of entity that, if X exists, then there is a presumption that would be evidence adequate to support the view that X exists; and

  (3) this presumption has not been defeated although serious efforts have been made to do so; and

  (4) the area where evidence would appear, if there were any, has been comprehensively examined; and

  (5) there are no acceptable beneficial reasons to believe that X exists
• 

  PSacramento

  “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
  Then he is not omnipotent.
  Is he able, but not willing?
  Then he is malevolent.
  Is he both able and willing?
  Then whence cometh evil?
  Is he neither able nor willing?
  Then why call him God?”

  - Epicurus, BC 341-270

  A valid point, why indeed?

  I mean, we can use humanity and human nature as the perfect example of love and compassion, we see it all the time, especially in Epicurus's time.
• 

  TheUbermensch

  Unfortunately you haven't countered the fact.

  You've given me two examples of "views" that are outside the views expressed by the Bible. Views expressed and idealized by mankind.

  Your arguments answer no questions, your arguments create arguments against yourself.

  For instance, if free will exists then the 3 conceptions of God (being perfectly good, knowing all, being all powerful) are impossible. Those traits would not allow a creator to instill the idea of free will into his creations. It's a perfectly valid, simple, and logical idea.

  Anyways, me having the lack of belief in God, my job is not to give you evidence of God's nonexistence. You believing in God makes you the one who needs to provide me with evidence, and you have yet to do so.
• 

  sizemik

  There exists a dilemma that can only be resolved by circular logic . . .

  We have a moral sensibility which is arguably based on "Christian" ethics . . . ie; the moral teachings of Christ. Those with that moral sensibility would not hesitate to assist their fellow if he was in peril . . . even a stranger . . . for he is our "neighbour". To withold help "when it lies in the power of your hand to do it" (proverbs somewhere) is not even sanctioned in the OT . . . it's morally repugnant to let someone perish when we could easily save their life . . . ie; if we have the knowledge and power to accomplish it.

  And yet upon examination . . . we find the God who is credited with being the "author" of this morality (the "creator" who "made man in his image") does not recognise that same moral standard. So we look for reasons for that.

  You can speculate on, or excuse that until forever never ends . . . but it won't change that simple fact . . . God does not/ cannot/ will not, operate by the very moral code he himself sets for humans.
• 

  N.drew

  Is everyone here sure that evil is not an illusion? How do you know? Can you prove it?
• 

  Shanagirl

  Ok what if God did not create the earth or us directly but a later emanation of the God Source of all, a shadow emanation came to be and wanted to imitate the True God Source, and this shadow emanation created "matter" and chaos and everything we know of the physical universe, and this shadow being thought it was the only creator being because once the dark matter and chaos came from it and myriads of other shadow beings came into existance from it, it boastfully said "I am the only god, there is no other gods but me......., and so all the other created beings looked at this creator being as the only god. Then this ignorant, boastful creator god, says to all the other shadow beings, "lets' make man in our image" and they create molded beings from the earth, which is how man came to be, but man and the earth has been in chaos ever since because this creator god, has misled mankind since the beginning, because mankind is created of matter and the only way we can have life is by acknowledging that the true source of all is the Divine Source, not the shadow being that made this claim. I believe this is the message Jesus came to the earth to give. As long as we are on this earthly plane of matter, we need to live the law of love with one another which is what the true source of all is and not the law of matter and the flesh which is what the shadow god is all about. This is why I think there is so much wrong in the world today, because the shadow false creator god caused it. I believe the shadow god and it's shadow created beings are the elohim, gods of the ancient Israelites, who became the Yahweh, Jehovah, warrior god. Not the New Testament God Christ spoke of .

  Shana
• 

  sizemik

  Is everyone here sure that evil is not an illusion?

  "Evil" is simply a concept encompassing all that is morally repugnant. Most humans understand the concept and regularly refer to it. So as a concept it undoubtedly exists for that reason.

  If a God feels a need to establish morals . . . then obviously he feels that "immorality" (evil) exists. Without it what does "good" mean?
• 

  N.drew

  OK I'm talking about the reality of it, not the theory. Everything has a reflection.

  "The Kingdom of God is near"

  "The end is near"

  Don't they mean close to the imagination of?
• 

  tec

  That is not a view, that is a logical fact.

  If someone can present a different pov, then no, it is not a fact. It is a view, a theory, not a fact.

  A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence. An omnipotent being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.

  Unless taking away free will is an evil, in and of itself.

  Would you want your freedom taken away?

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  sizemik

  OK I'm talking about the reality of it, not the theory.

  If "evil" is the conceptual term applied to what we consider morally repugnant . . . then it does exist . . . everywhere you look. Anything future exists only in the imagination . . . until it becomes present . . . then it's a reality.

  The Kingdom of God is near . . . only in the imagination . . . because it's using near as a timing indicator for the future . . . not present physical proximity . . . otherwise we could go and visit it now. It's not yet reality . . . and unless it actually arrives . . . it may never be.