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An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences
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PSacramento
The point is to give me a reason for this:
(1) God is omnipotent (that is, all-powerful).
(2) God is omniscient (that is, all-knowing).
(3) God is perfectly good.
(4) Evil exists.
How is this possible? We aren't arguing about select parts of this statement, we are talking about this statement, all together, whole.
You are making the statement that God being all powerful and all knowing and perfectly good means that evil can't exist and my point is that God being all those things doesn't make it impossible for evil to exist.
How are you gonna define Good without evil as a standard to go by?
Beyond that, what does "perfectly good" even mean?
Beyond that, why does an all powerful God equate to an all interfering God?
Beyond that, has does an all - knowing God allowing evil to exist equate to evil NOT serving a purpose that ONLY God knows about?
What you are stating is that according to you/our undersatnding of what good and evil are, an all powerful, all knowing perfectly God God can't allow for evil to exist BUT you are not statinG WHY that would be.
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TheUbermensch
He is all knowing.
He knows everything, otherwise he can not be considered to know everything.
He is all powerful.
He can do anything, stop anything, create anything, otherwise he can not be considered to be all powerful.
He is perfectly good.
He can not be bad, he is full of every virtue, compassion, love, etc.
He knows about the suffering. He can stop the suffering. Being perfectly good he WOULD stop the suffering. Suffering exists. This is a logical inconsistency.
You want a standard for evil? Animal abuse, genocide, and torture are moral examples of evil that happen on a daily basis. Volcanic eruptions, forest fires started by natural occurences like a bolt of lightning or dry weather, are natural examples of evil.
We are talking about pointless evil. What good does beating a horse do for God?
- A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
- An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
- An omnipotent being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
- A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
We can even get into Rowe's Evidential Problem of Evil
- There exist instances of intense suffering which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
- An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
- (Therefore) There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being. (Rowe 1979: 336)
E1: the case of Bambi
“In some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering” (Rowe 1979: 337).E2: the case of Sue
This is an actual event in which a five-year-old girl in Flint, Michigan was severely beaten, raped and then strangled to death early on New Year’s Day in 1986. The case was introduced by Bruce Russell (1989: 123), whose account of it, drawn from a report in the Detroit Free Press of January 3 1986, runs as follows:The girl’s mother was living with her boyfriend, another man who was unemployed, her two children, and her 9-month old infant fathered by the boyfriend. On New Year’s Eve all three adults were drinking at a bar near the woman’s home. The boyfriend had been taking drugs and drinking heavily. He was asked to leave the bar at 8:00 p.m. After several reappearances he finally stayed away for good at about 9:30 p.m. The woman and the unemployed man remained at the bar until 2:00 a.m. at which time the woman went home and the man to a party at a neighbor’s home. Perhaps out of jealousy, the boyfriend attacked the woman when she walked into the house. Her brother was there and broke up the fight by hitting the boyfriend who was passed out and slumped over a table when the brother left. Later the boyfriend attacked the woman again, and this time she knocked him unconscious. After checking the children, she went to bed. Later the woman’s 5-year old girl went downstairs to go to the bathroom. The unemployed man returned from the party at 3:45 a.m. and found the 5-year old dead. She had been raped, severely beaten over most of her body and strangled to death by the boyfriend.
(P) No good state of affairs we know of is such that an omnipotent, omniscient being’s obtaining it would morally justify that being’s permitting E1 or E2. Therefore,
(Q) It is likely that no good state of affairs is such that an omnipotent, omniscient being’s obtaining it would morally justify that being in permitting E1 or E2.
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PSacramento
Ok, that is one view and here is another.
God allows evil because for free will to exist then one must be free to do good as well as evil, if one is NOT premitted to do evil then there is n o free will since choice has been eliminated.
And another:
God allows for evil because evil brings one close to the notion and understanding of what is Good and in that, close to God.
I can go on but the point is, whether you agree or not or even not care at all for those views, that they are even a possibility means that the existence of God AND evil are NOT incompatiable.
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THE GLADIATOR
God allows evil because for free will to exist then one must be free to do good as well as evil, if one is NOT premitted to do evil then there is n o free will since choice has been eliminated.
Or free will exists because we are free. There is no god controlling, organizing or intervening?
All that has ever restricted humans is government, religion and people who have assumed power. Sometimes those restrictions have benefited us some times they have not. Nevertheless the rules we are expected to live by and enforced have always been man made.
All the good that man has done and the quality of life that has become possible has been brought about by the endeavours of man, women include. God does seem to be absent, yet the party goes on without him/her.
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TheUbermensch
That is not a view, that is a logical fact.
- A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
- An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
- An omnipotent being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
- A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
That is a fact with definitions set in stone.
You have YET to answer this.
God is all knowing.
God is all powerful.
God is perfectly good.
Evil exists.
Unsubstantial evil exists as well, evil without a purpose.
You have given me "yes, but"s but not "no, it's this way"s.
If you have to make that many exceptions (outside of the proposed idea and definition of God) to believe in a God you have just as much reason to worship the wind.
"Why does the wind blow to the West?"
"Because it is the Earth's choice to turn to the East and thus air goes to the opposite, it is all the Earth's choice"
"Yes but when the wind blows to the West people die, why would that happen?"
"The wind has a plan that we can't possibly understand"
"Then why worship it?"
"...."
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PSacramento
Or free will exists because we are free. There is no god controlling, organizing or intervening?
Indeed.
All that has ever restricted humans is government, religion and people who have assumed power. Sometimes those restrictions have benefited us some times they have not. Nevertheless the rules we are expected to live by and enforced have always been man made.
Man made? yes, by religious people will argue that the origin was divine.
All the good that man has done and the quality of life that has become possible has been brought about by the endeavours of man, women include. God does seem to be absent, yet the party goes on without him/her.
Not absent, but working through those that are the strewards of His creation.
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james_woods
That is not a view, that is a logical fact.
A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
An omnipotent being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
Maybe you are wrongly assuming that God is perfectly good - the description of him crafted in the old Testament includes anger, jealousy, and some pretty wanton destruction of various peoples for various reasons.
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PSacramento
That is not a view, that is a logical fact.
No, its not.
The moment that a possiblity is shown that counters the argument, then the arguement is countered.
EX:
Mankind is in a state of rebellion against God and His purpose. Rather than submit to and worship God, people rebel against God and go their own way and so find themselves alienated from God, morally guilty before Him, and groping in spiritual darkness, pursuing false gods of their own making. The terrible human evils in the world are testimony to man’s depravity in this state of spiritual alienation from God. The Christian is not surprised at the human evil in the world; on the contrary, he expects it. The Bible says that God has given mankind over to the sin it has chosen; He does not interfere to stop it, but lets human depravity run its course. This only serves to heighten mankind’s moral responsibility before God, as well as our wickedness and our need of forgiveness and moral cleansing.
Agreement is irrelevant, the point is that a possibility has been shown as to WHY God or any perfectly good being would allow evil and as such, the two are NOT incompatiable.
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Scully
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”- Epicurus, BC 341-270