An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

  • tec
    tec

    Sorry Tec - as much as you like to find your 'and with a single bound she was free' answers to wriggle out of hard questions free will is not a player in this game.

    I don't know what you mean by your 'quote', and of course free will is a player in this game. We weren't meant to have suffering or death at all, until we (Adam/Eve) chose that.

    Your god is responsible for tsunamis, earthquakes and disease - even you can't pin those on people not 'believing'.

    Um... I haven't pinned ANYTHING on people not 'believing.' As for natural disasters, I've commented twice in this thread on that.

    God also really hates the illiterate, the feeble, the young, old and infirm since his disasters always get them first.

    Disaster strikes everyone... has nothing to do with God hating anyone. The flesh gives out (elderly and infirm), and hasn't yet developed defenses (the young). Part of the physical world.

    All the gods of all the believers have done less of practical use than any famous scientist. I would choose the benefits to mankind of Louis Pasteur over all the fluffy 'help' the invisible gods do.

    All of this would depend on your pov, and who you are, and what help you may or may not have received.

    No god has given any evidence of caring a fig about any of his creations.

    My God has. In sending His Son. In granting peace, patience, love, freedom, understanding.

    He even makes the animals hunt and eat each other in a viscous gladiatorial combat played out in millions of deaths each day. No , if their is a god he's Roman and he's an evil so and so.

    Again, to these answers I am not certain. Of course, just because I don't know that answer (yet) doesn't mean there isn't one. Nor would the answer conflict with a God of love, who Christ showed.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • tec
    tec

    Qcmbr - Pain is probably the best warning/guidance/avoidance system our physical bodies have to stay safe and alive.

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    You know what's funny Q?

    If you or OTWO or I suggested [or stated directly] that we 'believed and have faith' in an invisible Yellow Dragon hiding in my garage it would be common knowledge that Q and AK Jeff and OTWO are 'screaming loons' believing insane nonsense, deluded and psychotic.

    Those who wanted to help us might actually come to the garage in question and try to show us that no dragon can be demonstrated by reasonable means or scientific study, therefore, unless we want locked up for life as delusional nutjobs - we had better either come up with some solid evidence or shut the hell up.

    Then after so doing, they would wander back home, get ready for church and go bow to their Gods - probably saying lengthy prayers for our well being and mental health. Sadly, the irony would be lost upon them.

    Jeff

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Rerconciling God with evil and suffereing has never been easy for me and I would venture to say for ANY beleiver.

    I have read the vast majority of apologetics on the matter and while they present possible reasons and views, they are all simply opinions.

    Some I agree with and some I don't.

    The honest truth is that I DO NOT KNOW any posible answer as to why God permits evil and suffering that would convince a non-believer.

    I don't know if there IS one.

    I think it is valid to question and to ask why and it is valid to search for the answer, wherever it may lead us.

  • tec
    tec

    Actually, Jeff, if your invisible yellow dragon was giving you hope, and telling you to do good things, all the more power to you. I'd probably think you were hallucinating, unless I saw some evidence of invisible yellow dragons too... but whatever. I wouldn't want you locked up unless your invisible yellow dragon was telling you to be a bad person, to hurt people, etc.

    Live and let live... unless your 'live' means I or others cannot, in peace and/or safety.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Many of the same people shouting out in complaint to God would be among the first to cry foul if His solution was an infringment upon their 'rights' and 'free will' - especially if that meant taking away their children so those children would no longer be taught their parents' lies.

    Okaaayyy, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you and yours, dear one!)? I marvel that so many who claim to "know" have absolutely NO idea what the word "hypocrite" REALLY means! Each side clamors for the SAME thing: let me choose my own path (and that of my children), run my own life (and that of my children), make my own choices (and that of my children), and do what I want to do (for and with regard to my children)... and then blame God FOR such choices!

    Your god is responsible for tsunamis, earthquakes and disease - even you can't pin those on people not 'believing'.

    All of these are results of and unique to the physical world, indeed the planet we live on, or the flesh, dear Q (as always, peace to you!). Since "we" want to govern ourselves, is it not also up to us to control our environment, to either tame it or learn about it... as well as make choices (including, perhaps, where to safely habitate, how to control disease... when, where, and how to help our fellowman, etc.) so that it does not destroy us? And shouldn't such concerns be with regard to ALL of us... AS A SPECIES/GENUS... versus only SOME of us? But isn't our tendency to look after our own flesh FIRST... so that, for a great part, what you see overcoming people detrimentally IS the result?

    Earthquakes and tsunamis are NATURAL events - belonging to and the rsult of the NATURE of this world. Yet, we build on shorelines and faults. We habitate flood plains and volcano bases. We occupy tornado "alleys".

    God also really hates the illiterate, the feeble, the young, old and infirm since his disasters always get them first.

    That apparently isn't the case in California (or much of the US). Here, it's been the ritzy parts of SF and LA (the Loma Prieta and Northridge quakes), or the fancy homes built on the side of cliffs or near forests (that succumb to mudslides or fire)... or built in remote areas along creeks and canals that historically flood. Even so, God isn't the one who places a high price on education. He isn't the one closing schools while fighting wars. He isn't the one paying internet moguls more than teachers. He isn't the one trying to do away with government assistance, medicare, social security, better health benefits. He isn't the one who won't see a patient because they don't have [enough] insurance and He has that Audi payment to make. He isn't the one who builds their houses on faults, near railroad tracks, out of inferior materials in shabby forms. He isn't the one that makes the COST of housing... of food... of medicine/health care... so expensive. HIS law is that such things are to be GIVEN... WITHOUT cost... to "any" who ask for it... by those who have it.

    WE throw away an abundance of food... or let it sit rotting on docks... while babies are starving, perhaps even within miles of us. We have closets full of shoes... while some have none at all. In this country alone WE throw away food, clothing... even medical supplies/apparatuses, medication, and more... while people within hours could be saved with such. WE do this. Do we HAVE to? Nope.

    But rather than look in the mirror, rather than say, "I do/did this" or "WE do/did this"... we look outside... through the window. At God... whom we attempt to blame. Why? Because He doesn't answer you back the way your fellowman would. And how would your fellowman answer? He would either tell you to F-off, mind your OWN business and quit worrying about HIM... or ask you what it is the YOU'RE doing and demand that YOU prove it (which you most probably can't). So, rather than blame him (man), or yourself... you turn to One who you THINK will not answer you back. You are mistaken, though. In His due time, He will certainly respond.

    In the meantime, do you not see how COWARDLY it is to blame Him... how unaccountable and unresponsible it is? Okay, so YOUR life sucks. Or yo look around and see that others' sucks. At what point do you look IN THE MIRROR... and take responsibility for that? At what point do you ADMIT that it IS the result of our choices... and our inability to govern ourselves... because, while SOME will do all they can to look after their brother and/or fellowman, MOST will do absolutely NOTHING? Indeed, most will TAKE from others, if it means more for them and theirs? At what point do we acknowledge that? At what point do we acknowledge that people are killed/tribes are wiped out... NOT for food, NOT for medicine... but for GOLD, DIAMONDS, OIL... and things like these?

    A funny thought just occurred to me: where the little children in Africa truly starving... before the man of the "civilized" world and its "religion" got there? Were the little children of the Amazon suffering from disease? Were the aboriginies of Australia refugees fleeing from war-torn cities? I think that if you took a TRUTHFUL look at these things, you would see than man is a HECKUVA lot more responsible for what many of these "poor" people have undergone and undergo... than God ever was or ever could be.

    Start with the man in the mirror, Q. Then the ones outside your window that you can see. THEN perhaps you can look to God. I don't think you will (as to the first) or, if you do, can (as to the last).

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • unshackled
    unshackled
    The honest truth is that I DO NOT KNOW any posible answer as to why God permits evil and suffering that would convince a non-believer. I don't know if there IS one. I think it is valid to question and to ask why and it is valid to search for the answer, wherever it may lead us.

    That PSac, is the most reasonable and direct answer I've heard, from one with a strong belief in God, on the subject of evil/suffering. Well said.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Agreed - lunacy is acceptable as long as its vaguely mainstream.

    Tec - I'm fairly sure I could design a better solution than evolution (oops the greatest invisible magic man ever) came up with.

    Let me give you an example. Childbirth could be painless and a euphoric experience from first contraction to last. The brain could be designed with an inbuilt option to switch off pain with a conscious choice so after it has done its job of warning of damage that pain could be switched off allowing you to still function rather than sending us, in extreme cases, into shock.

    If I have to suffer because God set up a stupid test that Adam had to fail ( I'll prove it if you want ) then god is an unfair , mischievous sadist who clearly planned all the pain and suffering from mthe get go.

  • Twitch
    Twitch
    Many of the same people shouting out in complaint to God would be among the first to cry foul if His solution was an infringment upon their 'rights' and 'free will' - especially if that meant taking away their children so those children would no longer be taught their parents' lies.

    Perhaps. Perhaps not. Would I be willing to make a personal sacrifice if it meant that the innocents of the world would be taken care of? Probably. Depends on what that would be/mean.

    If Allah was the true god, would you agree to raise your children as muslim if it meant equality for all?

    Who's to say all paths don't lead to the same god by a different name?

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    AGuest - yes people we're still dying from illness and dismal lives and horrible deaths long before modern technology increased the lifespans of ALL people. Your comments about rotting food ignore the fact that most food provided by your god he leaves to rot on trees and in the ground sometimes just feet away from unknowing, probably praying, starving people.

    I'll take my modern technology , agricultural revolution, pesticides, hybrid plants, refrigeration, UN food programmes, medicine, anti-malaria tablets, warehouses stocked with food over your god's fish and loaves trick.

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