Is it possible for an apostate to get reindoctrinated? (page 8)

moshe

It takes some real persuasion to get an ex-JW back into the KH.

unshackled

Mind boggling indeed BTS. So let me get this straight...

A) Believe but don't live it...snort coke off a Cuban's ass = All Good

B) Don't believe and don't live it...set up a plastic tree with shiny bulbs = Burn the Apostate!

botchtowersociety

Why you put up f***ing Christmas Tree? You f***ing apostate or somesing?

mamochan13

Great thread, and Teary and others doing the "dual personality" thing - thanks for a well-needed laugh.

I think people must define apostate by degree. Are you apostate when you simply leave the religion? Possibly not. But when you put up your first Christmas tree, have you crossed the line? Not necessarily. Early JWs celebrated Christmas. How about actively debating and refuting JW propaganda? Does that make you an apostate? Depends. Degree comes into play again. Do you wear a T-shirt and disrupt a JW meeting or protest outside a KH? Or do you simply quietly advocate the "real truth" to family and friends or in written word?

I define myself as an apostate because I left the faith and have gradually formed a set of beliefs that is quite different. I don't actively try to refute JWs or prosetilize [sp?], but I would never go back. One of my daughters, on the other hand, I think may be in danger of going back even though she doesn't believe most of what JWs teach, but still feels the need to fill some spiritual void.

maksym

An apostate is NOT someone that has left the religion of the Watchtower.

An apostate is someone that has left their religion in favour of another. Let's be real and think outside the box.

Charles Taze Russel was an apostate of the Prespyterian church. He indoctrinated himself to his own ways. Was it possible for C.T. Russel to get re indoctrinated again into his former religion? Yes, it was.

He chose not to.

The religion of the Watchtower is full of apostates. Many of them are ex Catholics, Baptists, Anglicans, Mormons, and Protestants of all sorts. They could get indoctrinated into their former religion again. It is certainly possible.

Peace out

Maksym

P.S. Reject rationalism and the scientific model for religious queries.

talesin

"In a technical sense, as used sometimes by sociologists

Well then, when I write a sociology paper, I may 'sometimes' be correct if I assumed your description of the term 'apostate' was valid. However, I am not speaking to a group of sociologists, and do not accept your obfuscatory twisting of language.

Now,,,

Most former members do not become apostates. They remain — in sociological terms suggested by David Bromley and others — "defectors" (members who somewhat regret having left an organization they still perceive in largely positive terms), or "ordinary leave takers" with mixed feeling about their former affiliation.

Priceless. So, even accepting (for the moment, and ONLY the moment) your definition of apostate, your source is saying that 15-20% are opposers, and the other 80-85% "regret having left" or have "mixed feeling about their former affiliation".

You've left out a giant slice of the pie, "Teary" ,,,,

"Teary" does not know that an huge proportion of exJWs do NOT feel regret,,, and have no MIXED FEELINGS about their former affiliation.

That huge proportion feels anger at the injustices perpetrated upon them by the WTBTS, and also a great deal of sadness for those who are still enslaved by the cult. These apostates neither feel mixed emotions, nor are they regretful .... yet, they have no place in your statistics.

Let's see, you started out with an errroneous definition of the word apostate (for all intents and purposes, tailored for use by a narrow, extremely specific field of experts, ie, sociologists), and totally ignored a large segment of the group you are dividing into percentages.

Teary needs to be either get off its high horse, or be quicker on the draw.

tal

talesin

Shack & BTS --- I have a whole set of relatives that I grew up with, including my maternal grandparents and uncles, who said till the day they died "Oh, I know it's the Truth TM ,,, remember, it's the Truth TM , I know Jehovah is right .... I just, well, you know,,, yes, I know dear, I don't go to meetings, but they are right ... if anybody is, they are."

Indoctrinated till the day they died,, in fact, I had a couple tell me on their death beds that they were scared of not coming back in the resurrection. BUT THEY LIVED WORLDLY LIVES .... it's really effed, is all I can say,,, the CD is amazing .. the denial,,, hedging of bets,,, it's crrr-aaa--zzzyyyy!!!!

t

* boggled mind * Klass

sizemik

you started out with an errroneous definition of the word apostate (for all intents and purposes, tailored for use by a narrow, extremely specific field of experts, ie, sociologists), . . . talesin

It's even more narrow than that tal . . .

Melton, Lewis, Bromley et al . . . whom Teary cites as his authority . . . are widely criticised and labelled "cult apologists" by multiple sources.

He's a high-rider with a slow hand . . . who has the audacity to slam everyone else for not being good researchers LOL.

talesin

Yes, Size ,,, I just finished reading that whole paper online,,, it's a muddied issue, and one that no one seems able to agree upon (according to Teary's article).

of note, this,,,

Among the issues rarely discussed was the assumption that many (hundreds if not thousands) of the new religious movements existed but data about and attacks upon "cults" was limited to a relative few groups. Only five groups, the Unification Church, the Divine Light Mission, The Way International, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and Church of Scientology, were regularly mentioned with less than twenty additional groups also cited on rare occasions.

It's basically studying (for the most part) five of the fringe 'new religions' that dealt with mostly young recruits, and comparing the brainwashing techniques (isolation from family, sleep dep, etc.) to those of the Chinese in the Manchurian Candidate ...

As you said, not extremely credible,, and doesn't really fit the exJW model.

so .. hmmmm

tal

Teary Oberon

*yawn*

The reactions so far to Teary's one single reference are hilarious. The posters started trying to crucify the authors of the work almost immediately, and the information they used to attack those authors come almost exclusively from the anti-cult movement which those authors originally criticised!

David G. Bromley

EDUCATION

Ph.D. Sociology: Duke University, September, 1971

M.A. Sociology: Duke University, September, 1966

A.B. Sociology:Colby College, June, 1963

FACULTY AND ADMINISTRATIVE POSITIONS

Professor, Department of Sociology and Anthropology, Virginia Commonwealth University: 1983-Affiliate Professor, Department of Religious Studies, Virginia Commonwealth University: 1994-Visiting Scholar, Department of Sociology, University of Virginia: 1992-Chairman, Department of Sociology and Anthropology, Virginia Commonwealth University: 1983-1986Head, Department of Sociology, University of Hartford: 1980-1983Associate Professor, Department of Sociology, University of Hartford: 1980-1983Director, Institute for Social Research, University of Hartford: 1980-1983Associate Professor, Department of Sociology, The University of Texas at Arlington: 1974-1980Acting Chairman, Department of Sociology, The University of Texas at Arlington: 1976-1977Assistant Professor, Department of Sociology and Anthropology,University of Virginia: 1968-1974

James Lewis is also a P.H.D, an award winning author and is very balanced and fair in his approach (unlike the anti-cult movement that literally foams at the mouth and breaks out the character assassination teams whenever somebody dares disagree with them).

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZexwH4DF8gEC&pg=PA238#v=onepage&q&f=false

All of the others that Teary has read and could site (but doesn't feel like citing because people should do their own work) are also quite well established in the academic community, and are anything but "fringe" (unlike many in the anti-cult movement).

Again, do your own research, read their actual works, and don't just use use a single source to character assassinate out of laziness, then never give the author another thought.

Is it possible for an apostate to get reindoctrinated?

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