Does the Issue of Universal Sovereignty make sense to you as an explanation for evil?

by gubberningbody 233 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  PSacramento

  that depend on what is being revealed. but the problem i brought up was with this statement:

  I would like to point out that IF personal revelation is NOT a valid form of evidence for God's existence, then neither is the "If Gid existed He would/should let Us know".

  which is false, because god can reveal himself in other ways than personal revelation.

  I understand what you are saying.

  What I am saying is that many do hold the view that IF god exists AND wants be to know Him, that He would make himself know to them.

  Yes?

  We have heard this often here, in one form or another.

  My point is that IF that kind of persnal revelation is not accepted as proof or evidence if it comes from someone else, why should it be accpeted if it happens to "us"?
• 

  Terry

  If evil proves to some there is no Universal Sovereign why is goodness not proof enough there is a Universal Soverign?

  If you state: All swans are white it only takes one Black swan to destroy your premise.

  That is the test of Falsifiability.

  But, in your query above you have overlooked how many evil people do very good deeds along with their evil.

  The point is BINARY THINKING is at work.

  The word Soverign (as in Soverignty) is an absolute term meaning completely in charge and in control.

  So, this is the real problem: A GOOD GOD who has NO EVIL in Him and is the Universal Soverign would not/could not allow the presence of it.

  That is, it is MORALLY reprehensible.

  But, you are left with the alternative of a possibly sometimes Good and sometimes Evil God.

  Or, the complete nullification of Soverignty in a totally Good God is falsified.

  Nothing is black and white about this.

  The God of Christianity struggles against Evil. Why? Soverign Godship would never allow it to happen in the first place.

  Theological thinking makes apologia, excuses, explanations and Rube Goldberg Dispensation charts to explain the presence of Evil.

  However, in a universe without "god" or "God" the presence of good is merely the obvious demonstration that our species has been able to survive by interconnectedness, mutual aid, community support, nurturing of the young, family stability and coalitions toward mutual goals.

  In other words, it is practical.

  We call this "GOOD" because it isn't "Bad".

  Sex between a male and female strictly as fun does not protect a pregnant outcome or set in place a safe haven for a family.

  Does this make sex "evil"? Does it make marriage "good"? Depends on the practical outcome of the act of procreation.

  Too clinical for you?

  It proves nothing about God.
• 

  N.drew

  OK you have proved to me that God's sovereignty (the hardest word in the English language to spell) is a sham. So then, how is Jehovah head over all? We can't go anywhere without Jehovah coming too.

  ps I like how you write Terry, but I have to read it r e a l s l o w.
• 

  AGuest

  having Jesus Christ as your Saviour doesn't preclude you from judgement AT ALL...all believers will stand before the judgement seat (2 cor 5:10)

  See, that's the interesting thing about putting one's faith in the Bible, Michelle... and Paul. Because (1) you are misapply this verse, and (2) about a year after Paul wrote the above to the Corinthians, he wrote the following to the Romans:

  Therefore those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation. For the law of that spirit which gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. Romans 8:1, 2

  While it is true that all WILL stand before the Judgment Seat, not ALL will do so in order to be judged. Indeed, the great crowd is seen standing before the throne (Judgment Seat)... yet, none are judged. Rather, they are performing sacred service in the "temple".

  That not all will BE judged is borne out in the words of my Lord (and NOT Paul's word, even though, again, you've misapplied them)... who is recorded to have said:

  "... the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." John 5:29

  In fact, the judgment doesn't even take PLACE... until AFTER the first resurrection, establishment of New Jerusalem (the kingdom), separating of the sheep from the goats... AND the destruction of the wild beast, false prophet, Babylon the Great, Gog, Magog... and [the beginning of the destruction of] Satan. (Revelation 20:1-15)

  The God of Christianity struggles against Evil.

  The god of false "christianity" so struggles, dear Terry (peace to you, as well!); however, the MOST Holy One of Israel has no such struggle.

  Why?

  Because false "christianity" has created this ruse... in order to try and teach people [how to be] "good." They utterly fail, though, because they keep seating themselves in the seat of Moses, keep making themselves teachers and leaders, keep trying to get people to see... to get there... without going through the Door!

  Soverign Godship would never allow it to happen in the first place.

  EXACTLY! Which is why the premise itself must be FALSE! There is NO fight/struggle/division between... "good" and "evil." It is not ABOUT that, at all. It is about you... and me... and each one of US... what WE will do "in the face of"... "when faced with", etc. How will WE, each of us, INDIVIDUALLY "make a reply"?

  Theological thinking makes apologia, excuses, explanations and Rube Goldberg Dispensation charts to explain the presence of Evil.

  As well as the existence of God... and the presence of His Christ. Which is why there is SO much confusion. NONE of it explains ANYTHING.

  Again, peace to you!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  PSacramento

  Theological thinking makes apologia, excuses, explanations and Rube Goldberg Dispensation charts to explain the presence of Evil.

  Really?

  In all my theology classes the issue of evil is never complicated or excused, though it may be debated very hotly at times simply because everyone wants to voice their opinion.

  There is NO incompatiablity between the existence of God and evil.

  What CAN be debated is the purpose of evil or even the reason for evil or even the nature of evil.
• 

  Quendi

  Without getting into a long, complicated and convoluted argument I'll only say that it still makes sense to me.

  Quendi
• 

  bohm

  psac: My point is that IF that kind of persnal revelation is not accepted as proof or evidence if it comes from someone else, why should it be accpeted if it happens to "us"?

  I dont think i have heard that argument (and it is different from your original formulation) which was

  I would like to point out that IF personal revelation is NOT a valid form of evidence for God's existence, then neither is the "If Gid existed He would/should let Us know".

  because as you originally formulated it, you were talking about all kinds of personal revelation, and all ways god could let himself be known to us (like writing his name on the moon).

  Anyway, like i wrote, i dont think the most recent formulation is how I would tend to put it. But i do think it is a valid point why god only choose to reveal himself to some people, and not to others, and especially why all the messages god delivers tend to differ and depend on cultural context and (often) prior mental problems, drug use, the medium meditating or being in isolation etc.

  But i can ask you: yes or no, If i claimed i heard the voice of God and saw him while i was awake, would you believe the most likely conclusion was that i did, indeed, hear the voice of god?
• 

  AGuest

  If i claimed i heard the voice of God and saw him while i was awake, would you believe the most likely conclusion was that i did, indeed, hear the voice of god?

  Personally, I would initially say no, dear Bohm (as always, peace to you... and I realize that you aren't addressing me but I would still like to respond, if I may - thank you!), based on what you've stated here. I would SAY no... because I would have to reject your assertion that you heard and/or saw God... while you were awake OR asleep... with no mention of His Son. That would be trigger for me to be skeptical, at least, at this point in time.

  Even so, even if we were living during a time previous to my Lord appearing in the flesh (when God spoke to/through the Prophets)... OR now... it would still depend upon what YOU said HE "said"... or "showed" you. Thereafter, for ME such saying would have to pass the following:

  1. Did it come from/through Christ (His Word, the Holy Spirit)? If not, I would reject it. If you said it did, then I would have to consider:

  2. Was it something that was offered in love... stated in love... borne out in love... manifest in or by love... or directs/disciplines/exhorts in love? If not, again, I would reject it, as well as reject that it came from/through Christ.

  What if you said "He" said something that was written [in the Bible]? Perhaps something like telling you to call down "evil" on some kids that were taunting you? I would tell you that you are NOT listening to the Most Holy One of Israel... OR to His Son... but to some "other" spirit... and to reject it. I would based that on MY knowledge of God... as being "slow to anger, merciful, and ABUNDANT in loving kindness," which knowledge I received from His SON... who would have never done such a thing (call down evil on ANYONE), let alone tell someone else to do so. Couldn't happen.

  So, there are ways, dear one, for one to know who is speaking TRUTH when they say they hear God/His Son (or see them)... and when they are not. By the "fruits" of whatever it is they say. If the "fruit" of such sayings are love, joy, peace, faith, mildness, kindness, goodness, long-suffering, and self-control... I would have no problem - share away! If, however, such sayings have to do with the "other" fruits (i.e., anger, hatred, revenge, revelries, jealousies, envies, murders, adulteries, etc.... physical OR spiritual), I would have to totally reject them.

  We don't have to guess at this matter, dear B, truly. We only have to have faith... the size of a mustard seed. That really is all.

  Again, peace to you... and thank you for indulging me, here!

  YOUR servant (still)... and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  tec

  1. Did it come from/through Christ (His Word, the Holy Spirit)? If not, I would reject it. If you said it did, then I would have to consider:

  2. Was it something that was offered in love... stated in love... borne out in love... manifest in or by love... or directs/disciplines/exhorts in love? If not, again, I would reject it, as well as reject that it came from/through Christ.

  What if you said "He" said something that was written [in the Bible]? Perhaps something like telling you to call down "evil" on some kids that were taunting you? I would tell you that you are NOT listening to the Most Holy One of Israel... OR to His Son... but to some "other" spirit... and to reject it. I would based that on MY knowledge of God... as being "slow to anger, merciful, and ABUNDANT in loving kindness," which knowledge I received from His SON... who would have never done such a thing (call down evil on ANYONE), let alone tell someone else to do so. Couldn't happen.

  So, there are ways, dear one, for one to know who is speaking TRUTH when they say they hear God/His Son (or see them)... and when they are not. By the "fruits" of whatever it is they say. If the "fruit" of such sayings are love, joy, peace, faith, mildness, kindness, goodness, long-suffering, and self-control... I would have no problem - share away! If, however, such sayings have to do with the "other" fruits (i.e., anger, hatred, revenge, revelries, jealousies, envies, murders, adulteries, etc.... physical OR spiritual), I would have to totally reject them.

  Yes. This! This is what I do, anyway.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  myelaine

  dear Terry...

  you said: "The God of Christianity struggles against Evil. Why? Soverign Godship would never allow it to happen in the first place."...

  the jewish apocrypha talks about several levels (dimentions?) of heaven as does the NT writer paul and Jesus said that He saw satan himself fall from heaven like lightening.

  God is Sovereign in highest heaven...where He can't look upon evil because it is reprehensible.

  so this, and the fact that Jesus is given all authority over heaven and earth, points to the the issue of Universal Sovereignty being "contractually" signed and sealed but not delivered or implemented yet because delivery would mean a need for instant elimination of evil and God WANTS to wait because His "stated" will is that all "men" might be saved. (rev 11:15-19)

  love michelle