by Unlearn 105 Replies latest jw friends
"You must have me confused with someone else. Far from a JW apologist, I'm one of the Society's most ardent critics ..."
Whoops...
You're right...
However, since your stance appears to be fundamentalist and literalist, the effect comes uncomfortably close to the Jehovah's Witness' tendency to 'cluck their tongues' at any non-biblical stance...
Not one on this site clucks louder than the atheists and God-haters.
@Unlearn
The "Blood Issue" was the first source of contention my wife expressed with the organization. Neither of us have a DPA card that we carry or on file at the Kingdom Hall. We both agreed that we would rather avoid that type of treatment, if possible. But if it came down to it, we would do what it took to preserve our child's or our own life.
I told her that if the Elders knew she felt that way, she'd be disfellowshipped. She promptly replied that it wasn't "any of their business." She thinks that she can have disagreements with the organization, keep them to herself, and hopefully never be put in the position to be exposed. She doesn't want the disruption in her social life style.
Part of the problem I have with her is that we are in a GREAT congregation, as far as congregations go. We have a pretty liberal Body of Elders, and a very warm and loving (but not nosey) congregation. We have several good friends we associate with regularly, and there is always something fun going on. I've wondered if I should look for an excuse to re-locate in an effort to accelerate her desire to leave.
We will outgrow the house we live in in another 2 or 3 years, and that would be an obvious chance to do such a thing as mentioned above. However, I would rather not wait that long.
After reading all of Unlearn's posts so far......all I can say is WOW! This reminds me so much of myself that it is uncanny. Thanks Unlearned for being so forthright. It has been awhile since this forum has had someone come forward with the openness that you have put here.
You are what makes this forum keep us coming back to see what is happening with the rank and file lurkers such as you have been....and as I was at one time.....and as many others have been.
Much of your story reminds me and brings back memories of what I used to be......an elder just like you putting up with the same stuff!
Thankfully, I've been out for over 10 years now and I need these reminders from time to time.
I wish you success in your new life and thank you for sharing.
Keep telling us more. You are an excellent writer...something I am not able to do.
God bless you and your family.
HappyDad
@ exwhyzee -
I can understand your feelings. Mental programming is hard to break...and obviously some never even attempt it because it would be such a shift in their basic sanity, they steer far clear of anything that challenges their accepted worldview. Still, as is evidenced by all here, it can be done. And of course, anything I say...or anything anyone who's left will say, can be spun into propaganda for the org. This is why it's pointless to engage in continual debate with them. The discussions are very cyclical...and they always come back around to YOUR facts vs THEIR faith...as if the two are somehow equal in weight. Again, I know some of the more religious among us would argue that, in some cases, they are. I don't agree. Just because some FEELS it strongly doesnt make it so. And when any debate topic can spiral down to the eventual '...Because the Bible says so....' statement, well...it's pointless. Because 'holy books' can all be widely interpreted. I say this to offend NO ONE here. It's just my observation. Most religious people will agree that, yes, the Bible IS interpreted in MANY ways: they will also assert that the interpretation THEY believe in is the 'right' one. And to that, I steal a quote from Mr. Lennon: 'Whatever gets you through the night...'
Seriously. I don't wan't to argue dogma anymore. I've wasted years doing that. I just want to be happy. And for years, I haven't needed 'religion' to do it. And I am SO happy.
It should anger you, exwhyzee, to think of an elder still pushing trash when he didn't believe in it. I did it shortly...but it was because I was still trying to hang on. Part of me felt that maybe, I could help 'reform' or wake others up. Some stick with this goal...but I saw it as futile. It's hard to play 'the flickering light' in a windstorm of articles and talks and general paranoia about APOSTASY. It's a gestapo environment. And remember what happened in Nazi germany? the thinkers and artists...when they saw they were banging their heads against the wall trying to appeal to peoples humanity...they got the hell out. The ones who stayed got slayed.
So yes...I did hang in a while, knowing it was a sham...but I truly loved many of those people. Some of them were so damaged and so misguided...and they were so gentle and 'good'. When you've been in this position of 'shepherd'..and you've really bought into it...really believe you should lay out for these folks, it affects what you do and how quickly you walk away. At least it did to me. An extensive family in the org makes it worse. And, to be honest, my last years worth of talks were all about basic goodness...how to treat each other, how to feel good about yourself...things like that. I turned down public talks and other talks, including the memorial, because I couldnt deal with it. The one thing I do regret was that final baptisimal talk. 4 people got baptized, among them a young couple. THey came up at the end of the day Saturday to shake me hand and thank me, with tears in their eyes. My wife can attest to the disturbed feeling i was covered with that weekend, and to this day. It's a motivating factor for the things Ive done to assist others since leaving the org...and the things that I am going to do soon. Do I feel that 'god' will get me for that or that I must go save a certain amount of souls to make up for these? Naaah. Thats the kind of superstitious mythology that I've walked away from. No one is coming to get me...or to 'settle' with me. Things happen...some good, some bad. You screw up...sometimes badly. It's unfortunate. It's life.
@ dontplaceliterature
Man, I can't stress this enough...if you can move, far away...do it.
Here's what's funny: all the things that JW's push to keep their flocks 'strong and spiritual' are quite defined in their books and mags and talks. Do the OPPOSITE of these things, and you will get 'weak' by their standards (which actually means you'll become more normal and healthy by sane peoples standards). MOVE. Isolate her from everything she knew (people-wise). It sounds cruel, maybe...but it's not. Think of it this way, she's an alcoholic...and she's beginning to realize it during certain moments of clarity. Privately, she'll turncoat on some of their core defining rules (blood). Here's the problem: she 'works' in a liquor store. So, she goes to this place that she's been told 'she must'...and she sips here and there. And she only sips the 'light' stuff...a little wine...She reasons that the 'heavy' liquor is not good for her...so as long as she is discerning about what she sips, she's ok. But you can see the real problem: she regularly spends time IN the store. So why does she keep going to the store? Well, she feels she HAS to, first off. It's her job. She HAS to go. She has friends and maybe family who also work there. She likes seeing them. The liquor store is an environment where they see themselves safe and 'free'. But there's a deeper reason...and sometimes it's the strongest one: if she leaves the liquor store job, she may not be able to find another job. THIS is 'in the hand'. It terrifies her to think of having NO job.
So, she goes to work. An alcoholic. At the liquor store. Where she sips wine.
Get her away from that store. When you can move far away, you at least force her to have to go through all of the trouble of finding a new hall, making new friends...getting 'comfortable'. It's hard, especially if she has to do it alone. Again, it seems cruel, but it's not. JW's will do much meaner things than that because they believe theyre 'saving your life'.
It's why they push and push meeting attendance. From what I see, it starts there. You're dealing with a mind 'addicted' to the 'liquor' of this org...and that hall is the 'liquor store'. They will tell you in their own literature that, if you start missing meetings regularly, YOU WILL FALL OUT OF THE TRUTH. They're telling you how to kill JW spirituality.
Those of us trying to get friends and loved ones to wake up...I think we should remember the old teachings...and the things they obsessively push to keep their flocks 'strong'. Remember them, and then 'reverse engineer' them.
- Find reasons to miss meeting.
- Find reasons to miss field service.
- Find reasons to not go out with other JW's in association.
And look for people who are not JW's and are doing good in the world or in your community. Point out the good in the world. Doom and gloom religions thrive on the idea that the world is 'worse than it has ever been'. Bullshit. It won't be hard to find 'good'...it's everywhere. Point it out...and then point out that JW's lore, logic, or knowledge had NOTHING to do with it.
Obviously, Im not telling you what you SHOULD do...you're no doubt a smart man, and you know your lady better than anyone else.
Just mentioning a few of the things that helped me when I was in your situation.
Life is a big beautiful forest...so much to see and do and explore. This cult is the section of fence near the outskirts of the woods, that you get your coat snagged on. It holds you up from the real world. Those poor worldly folks were right all the time.
Welcome, Unlearn, and grateful thanks for all that you have shared with us.
I've been lurking on your mind-clearing thread. !
All the best,
CoCo
Unlearn,
I have read every word that you've posted ...and am convinced of your devotion and ability to truly 'help' people, inside and out.
From this , I know that I have never met you ... or sadly to say, nor anyone else who is like you.
Even if the 'elders' had cared more ... there is still that glaring false doctrine, deception and endless man made rules.
My words echo the thousands escaping from this cult ... I'm FREE. I am HAPPY. I am FEARLESS ...the guilt is gone ......................................................
So glad you decided to join us& for your wife
clarity
Hello Unlearn & Wife and a big Welcome from me here in the UK. What a wonderful introduction. Such understanding, such insight. Incredible. I am so glad for you both that you have found your freedom. Its also very encouraging for us here that you have been lurking and benefitting so much. I am sure that your experiences and your ability to express your feelings will help so many people on here. I stiil carry so much resentment against some elders for their influence and contribution to the damage to my whole family. They are the 'tool' that the GB use to maintain the status quo and it takes a long time to see and accept that some of them are just as 'lost' as the rest of us a lot of the time.
I look forward very much to your future posts, and those of your wife and I wish you both well.
Loz x
UNLEARN- Wow, just wow. You blow my mind , in a good , happifying way ! You are one of the most upfront, honest, conversational , candid posters ( outside of myself ) I've seen in an initial thread in a long time ! Awesome thread, awesome way you express yourself. It is very appealing and super cool. So glad you are part of our board here.
Like yourself - I was a born-in JW from birth. Got out at age 44 almost 8 years ago . Most of my family is still in- aged JW parents ( been in since 1950's ) and older siblings , and two daughters are JW's. My older son and my wife are not JW's for which I'm very thankful. Thanks for sharing a part of yourself with us. I'm so happy that both you & your wife are now fading and gradually exiting this wacked out organization.
I'll send you a PM with my wife and my phone number - perhaps we can talk sometime. Just remember you are among friends here who care unconditionally about you, myself included - and I might add we love you and your wife as well unconditionally. Take care my friend. Check your PM for my PM
Welcome Unlearn from a recent member and poster as well. Well well, a former; and may I say prominent elder. From a fellow "born in" my hat is off to you sir for enduring so long. Truly difficult to do. For myself I am still "in", yet not mentally. My loving and dear wife is still in yet I believe is secretly harbouring doubts herself. Thank you so much for your story. It has shown me there is hope for me too. I was never an elder but was a well used ms, public talks, and every form of responsibility out there. I was used up and when accused falsely was thrown to the wolves. Anyway, if you wish more details send me a pm.
Again welcome and thanks for your candid and well constructed posts..
Kensei
Well,I'm a bit late,but, welcome. And I can relate to being one of those "liberal' Witnesses. I guess it's why I never really fit in.
I'm happy for you on your new life.
