Because many comments in the OP are with reference to me, dear Awen (the greatest of love and peace to you!), I would like to respond and thank you in advance for indulging me.
In some previous posts I have asked certain questions that still haven't been answered. So without going back to those threads and possibly de-railing them I thought it best to make a new topic. Please bear with me. I have asked certain ones to prove the existence of God or Christ without referencing any Biblical writings or characters.
This isn't accurate at all, dear one. First, that you don't get or accept the answers doesn't mean you weren't answered. Second, you did NOT ask that the existence of God or Christ be proven "without referencing any Biblican writings or characters." You FIRST asked:
IF we don't look to the Bible, how are we supposed to know anything at all about Christ?
To which I responded, in my usual line-by-line manner:
"The same way Moses, David, and others like them did. From Christ, himself. Through holy spirit."
Which was the answer.
You THEN asked:
Without referencing the Bible (either in scripture or lesson) how are we supposed to know how to pray, to ask for guidance, to ask for Holy Spirit, to know what God's and or Christ's purpose is?
To which I responded:
"By going directly to the Source. By "drinking" at the Source. Versus "downstream", where the "water" has been "polluted" (by whatever means)... and after it has passed through various "towns" and "cities"... that have either added their "waste" and other pollutants... or stripped the water of all nutrients."
Which, again, was the answer... AND with NO Bible reference whatsoever.
I was promptly directed to certain Biblical characters who didn't have a Bible but learned through the holy spirit about Christ.
These are not simply Biblical characters. Moses and David were both historical figures as well as Biblical figures. That modern man hasn't found documentation of the first outside of the Bible is if no concern: (1) they have only recently found such as to David; however, it existed even before they "discovered" it; and (2) no telling what all's in the vaults of the Vatican and various monestaries... which most do not have access to.
Because this line of reasoning would lead back into the discussion of "what is truth", however, I won't go any further so as not to derail this particular subject. But it blows my mind, sometimes, that folks question the existence of these men. I mean, heck, "Jimmy" the Son of the priest of Pharaoh existed... and we have NO problem believing that... in spite of no record. Just because there is no record doesn't mean someone didn't exist (c'mon, now - if the only people who ever "existed" are those for whom there is a modern-day record... or a modern acceptance of the ancient record... well, then, there's a whole lot less humans that have existed than we can ever imagine. Interesting, though, isn't it, that no one questions the existence of Mohammed... or Siddartha... or Confucious. And please don't say, "Because there is a record." There is a record of Moses... and David. That some don't LIKE or want to ACCEPT the record doesn't invalidate the record..." I digress.).
Apparently they didn't understand the part about not referencing the Bible nor anything contained in it (which would include the Holy Spirit as defined in the Bible).
Golly, it's gotten to that, has it? Suggesting that someone didn't even understand "the part about"? I responded to your comments virtually line by line, as is my style and custom. In that light, I took and responded to each as they came. I absolutely understood "the part about"... and so responded appropriately, accurately, and truthfully... when it came up...
It would seem to me that if YHWH and Jesus (or a variation of name of the Son of God in the Bible) were proveable then there would be many references outside of the Bible.
Proveable HOW? By the "scientific method", yes? But that method only works as to what science can prove... physically/empirically... does it not? Yet, God and Christ are spirits, are they not? So, while there ARE many references "outside of the Bible" (because the Bible does not PROVE God OR Christ)... that they are not "proveable" in the manner you may WISH them to be... means... what?
Perhaps, rather than dogmatically adhering to the method YOU choose to OBTAIN such proof/references... you should consider trying the "method" given by God: which is faith in Christ (and I don't mean a mere belief that he existed, etc.). I mean, if Scientist "A" said to you, "Here is the method I used to prove such and so, and so you really must use this method to get the same results"... would you TRULY say, "Well, I'm NOT gonna try THAT method, because I don't think it will work! I think only THIS method is the one to use and, unfortunately, it DOESN'T prove such and so. So, your proof doesn't exist"?
Would you seriously not even consider using the originating scientist's own method? Especially... if you're NOT a scientist??
Are there?
Yes, there are. Many. Even written. As I have repeatedly stated, the word of my Lord to me is, "All that I tell you... IS written; however, not all that is written is what I will tell you." Again, when he said "IS written", he did not necessarily mean "in the Bible". Likewise, when he said "not all that is written"... he meant "in the Bible."
That those who possess these writings have not made them available to all... does not mean they (and the references they include) don't exist. That all have not been found... does not mean they (and the references they include) don't exist. That YOU don't understand what you read WHEN you read from [some of] them... does not mean such references don't exist. That you and others believe it okay to pick and choose what and which reference writings to believe... at to ANY subject... yet, cry foul when others do the same... is... interesting.
This is important because it has been stated ad nauseum that the Bible isn't a reliable source of information about God (as many lies have been told) and therefore shouldn't be used.
This is the truth. And NOT because certain ones have stated it: the Bible itself states it. In sufficient enough places... by credible enough sources... to SHOW it to be true. If, say, Mark Twain wrote a book and said, in several places, that it's not completely reliable... would you dismiss his book? Would you dismiss the entire book... or only those things in it which you have found to BE unreliable?
So if a person took this train of thought and ran with it to it's logical conclusion it would seem impossible to know anything about God or his Son without the Bible.
How so? If the Bible ISN'T a reliable source of information about God... why would it be impossible to know ANYTHING about God... or His Son... WITHOUT it? Wouldn't relying on it do the OPPOSITE... if it isn't RELIABLE?? And doesn't the history and track record of "christianity" and its interpretation(s) SHOW the Bible... in its entirety... to be unreliable???
What is reliable in the Bible and what is not? How are we to know the difference?
Okay, see here is where YOU create the confusion you blame others for: you want information but WITHOUT such one(s) referencing the Bible... yet, you are asking AS TO THE BIBLE. YOU could have left this discussion solely about God and Christ. You did not. But you expect others to do so. How can one respond to you as to the Bible... without referencing the Bible???
Well, praise JAH... it can be done. There are many ways to know the difference, but the EASIEST is to look at His Son, Jah eShua. The Christ. Which you don't NEED a Bible to DO. But, okay, say one can't do that (they believe). Then... even before getting to the Bible... LOGIC should dictate. Consider this: the Bible says "God is love." If that is TRUE, then various UNLOVING acts attributed to Him in the Bible CANNOT be true. OR... He is NOT love. The Bible says "God is righteous." Same premise: if that is TRUE, then various UNRIGHTEOUS acts attributed to Him in the Bible... CANNOT be true. OR... He is NOT righteous.
Which is it? Again, the easiest way to KNOW... is to look at Christ, the One who came to "bear witness to the truth" ABOUT God. How do you KNOW that? By reading the Bible? If reading the Bible made that CLEAR, KNOWN... then why in the WORLD do all those who read it not GET that? Why don't YOU? Because one does NOT get that from reading the Bible: one gets it... directly FROM Christ.
The Son coming to Earth and giving his life as a ransom has been shown as "proof" of his existence, yet this is a direct reference to the Bible as it contains the narrative of the events being discussed.
Where did you get that that is "proof"? From those who say they believe, who say they have faith... yet, don't even believe he's alive and speaks? Who don't possess enough faith to go to HIM... and him ALONE... but rather, still walk by SIGHT... by what they SEE with their eyes... words in a BOOK?
What texts exist that speak of this that aren't part of the Bible?
And here is my point: you and others decry the legitimacy of what's written in the Bible, a book... texts... and yet cry for yet ANOTHER set of books... texts. Apparently, to "prove" even further that what is written in the first is reliable. And what, then? MORE "texts" to prove the reliability of THOSE "texts"? At what point does the "making of many books" end? At what point does walking by FAITH kick in... and completely override walking by SIGHT?
I would omit texts written by Christians as they are logically gonna be referencing the Bible in their arguements.
Why not omit texts written by ANY man... and simply go to the SOURCE himself???? Why do you need what MAN writes... to keep proving GOD?? MAN... CAN'T prove God. Through what he writes or otherwise. Only GOD can prove God. Only HE proves to be what He proves to be. And He DOES so... ONLY through His Son. Not through me... not through you... not through the Apostles... not through Paul... not through other Body members... Through NO man. Through CHRIST. ONLY. That you don't GET this says to ME... that you haven't gotten any of it. So, reading the Bible has left YOU... where, dear one?
Also the arguement that people wouldn't have put their lives on the line for a lie can also be disproven as many JW's have done the same by refusing blood transfusions or various other religions have sacrificed their children to what turned out to be false gods.
You have never heard that argument from me. Indeed, I don't know who makes it...
One might look at the world around us and say "there's proof of God." I would counter with "which god?" Just because the Bible gives a creation account doesn't mean it's true, especially when science has debunked a lot of the Genesis account and not to mention the comments about the Bible being unreliable.
One might. If, however, one IS looking to the world around them... to say that it does or does NOT provide such proof... again, one doesn't get it. In fact, one who does so look and say is more likely following Paul than Christ. Because it is the physical realm... which is CURSED... and so "home" to sin and death. Versus, the spirit realm... in which neither exist. One (sin) was cast out with those who possessed it and the other confined to the "abyss." While both exist, it is not within the spirit realm... but the "vicinity" of the physical realm.
If it's unreliable, then stop referencing it in your talking points. Either it's a valid source or it's not. You can't have it both ways.
This is inaccurate... and ridiculous. First, that the Bible in its entirety is unreliable does not mean there is not some reliable, accurate, credible information in it. Even so, those who may reference it, including myself, don't necessarily do it for themselves... but for those who still lack faith... who STILL walk by sight and so need to "see it in writing." Like yourself. True, it may not be the text YOU want referenced, but that is not the case with all.
Second, it's ridiculous in that the same could be said of virtually every text written by man: ALL contain SOME inaccuracies and SOME unreliable statements/data. Were that not the case, there would never be a "revised" version of... whatever it was. All history books would need to be pulled from the shelfs. That a book or document contains SOME unreliable information does not mean that it is ALL unreliable.
Even more so for the Bible... which is not ONE book, but as dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!), pointed out... is a compilation of many books. So, just because "Paul" made some very inaccurate statements... does not mean John did. Or because Leviticus may have been tampered with... does not mean Genesis was.
The "Bible"... is not a book (although many wish it so and try to make it so)! The Bible... CONTAINS books. Just as it is NOT scripture... but CONTAINS scripture.
Also how do you know that the "voice in your head" is actually that of Christ? It could seemingly be something else.
I assume you are asking me: it is not in my head. It is in my blood and my bones. So, yes, since there is blood and bone in my head, it is "there", too. But not in the manner you mean - i.e., in my thoughts. And, yes, it seemingly COULD be something else. Which is why I ASKED who it was that was speaking to me... and HOW.
Where is the definite proof that it is Christ?
"Definite" proof for WHO? You? Or me? Since it is the voice that I hear... what need is there for proof to YOU? The only voice YOU need proof of is the one YOU hear, yes? And since you don't hear one... why are you concerned as to what I or any others hear? (I am assuming that you DON'T hear because of your change of heart; however, I am uncertain - I mean, I have NO idea... and actually wonder how it is that you "knew" you were "anointed"... which you not only previously claimed, but apparently "used" to "lord over" others, given what YOU stated you said to certain JW "elders".)
Simple belief isn't enough.
Never has been... never will be. The demon believe...
I could believe the "voice in my head" is the Tooth Fairy or more plausible my own subconscious.
You could. You could also KNOW that it's neither...
This seems to be the case when confronted with difficult questions about the origin of the universe, how a scripture should be interpreted or pretty much any other question. Ask the "voice in your head" if E=MC2 is really correct and if it's not, then give the mathematical formulae for what is really truth. Seems simple enough.
The only part that is simple is asking. Putting faith in the ANSWER... whatever it happens to be... not so much. Being able to "bear" the answer (if it is "no")... OR the "formulae"... which may not even BE math (as we know it)... but something much higher... even more difficult. I shared such an experience here on the board. I heard the "formulae" that resulted in birth of the Light... followed by the creation of the physical universe. I truthfully stated that I did NOT understand the "language"... that it was "like" math but much, much more "advanced". So there is NO WAY I could restate it, at all. I only understand what it MEANT: "Let Light come to be" or something similar. And then, I saw my Lord "born".
So, while someone CAN tell you the RESULT of the "formulae"... they may not be able to recount... or recreate... it.
I would reason that not receiving an answer would be more proof that you're simply talking to yourself and not the Son.
I wouldn't. I would reason that (1) although I may not have received it NOW, I WILL receive it... when I can bear and/or understand it, and (2) that it may not come to/through me, and so (3) I may have to wait. Sometimes, for years. Apparently, others knew/know this and reason(ed) similarly.
Why would the Son refuse to answer a question that would only exalt his name and prove his existence to people who weren't present in Bible times.
Because he doesn't care about doing so. Because he doesn't NEED to exalt his name (in fact, he would NOT do so... which is another reason why he was chosen)... OR prove his existence. To ANYONE. The Most Holy One of Israel has ALREADY exalted his name! Over EVERY OTHER NAME! Heck, I can see THAT in the world: while his name ISN'T "Jesus"... I promise you, [the name of the Son of God] is placed higher than any other name known to man. When they finally get his TRUE name... it will be even more so. Until then, that name will remain protected... from the GREAT reproach often brought on the other (i.e., what some DO... "in the name of [Jesus]").
And the only one HE needed to prove anything to WAS the Most Holy One of Israel. What you and so many others OVERLOOK... is that this not him proving ANYTHING to US; it's about US... proving something to HIM: our FAITH.
Be all of that as it may, if the "proof" that you and others demand WERE given, you wouldn't NEED faith... and, sadly... you wouldn't believe ANYWAY. No more than those others who saw him, in the flesh, heard what he said with their own ears and saw what he did with their own eyes. Physical proof... doesn't PROVE anything. At least, not what WE are supposed to be proving: love of God... and FAITH... in His Son.
The problem is that you and those like you want to receive a "reward"... BEFORE you do the work: show me, FIRST... THEN I'll believe. Yet, you have it backwards. It's believe FIRST, THEN you'll be shown. You confuse this because you do not understand what occurred with Thomas. And, yes, this is a Bible reference because it the one you all clamor after the most on this issue. Per YOU... Thomas was granted to see the holes in my Lord's flesh. What you don't get is WHY - why he asked, indeed, WHAT he asked:
Thomas lacked faith... that my Lord had been RESURRECTED. He did not believe that my Lord had been nailed to the pole, died, and come back to life. He said he would only believe THAT... if he saw the holes. But he NEVER doubted that my Lord was the Son of God! Like the others, he dropped what he was doing... and followed the Lamb [of God]. He did so... even before ever seeing PROOF... because of his FAITH: that he WAS the SON OF GOD. Now, though, this Son had been impaled, nail to a pole, died, entombed... and yet lived. THAT is what Thomas had a problem with. And when he was shown proof... NOT that my Lord was the Son of God... or that God even existed... which was NEVER an issue with Thomas... he ALSO believed that my Lord had been resurrected... and LIVES... again!
But, like so many others... you miss this truth. Why? Because you are counting on your eyes... and what you THINK they see... and not on Christ... and the eyesalve HE gives... holy spirit... to give you "proof." Even though your own eyes can't be trusted?? I ask you: how many times have YOU read a verse, thinking it said "red"... then realizing later than it actually said "blue"? Regardless of what the WTBTS and others SAID it said? YOUR eyes "saw" the verse, didn't they? Yet, now it "says" something else. How IS that? Do the words in the Bible literally change?? Seriously? Or is it what you SAW that changed, even what you UNDERSTOOD?
Also something was mentioned in another post about people always asking for a sign and this was an indication of their wickedness. Really?
Yes, really. That is correct. It really is only a wicked generation that asks for a sign. Wicked, i.e., lacking FAITH.
Yet how many of us have asked the GB for proof that they are guided by the Holy Spirit?
I cannot say. I can say, however, that I didn't. I didn't ask THEM to prove who THEY were. I asked the Most Holy One of Israel to let me know HIS truth... and it was through THAT One... that I came to know the GB was NOT guided by him... or holy spirit. But I never asked THEM to prove it. Why? Because if they weren't, they were imposters and so any "proof" they showed was false, anyway... if they could in fact show any proof... and if they were... well, I might find myself fighting against God. Instead, I simply TRUSTED... that God would show me, if there was anything I needed to know. And He did: through His Son. Still does...
How many of us have left that faith because we discerned that it wasn't being led by God at all?
Not sure what that has to do with anything? You left your faith in a man-made institution... a golden calf constructed by men... because neither the institution OR the men leading IT... were being led by God! GOOD for you! Wonderful! That you left THEM, however, equates to your leaving GOD... is another matter altogether, is it not? God was never WITH them. So how is it that you blame HIM... for THEIR ruse? GOD did not send you there: either your parents/guardians did... because THEY didn't know God... or you chose to go there. Because YOU didn't know God. Had you... or they... listened to GOD, however... and not MEN... you WOULDN'T have gone there.
Who is to blame for YOUR misdirected path, dear one? Is it not you... or those who were in charge of you for some time? Where is the accountability for YOUR choices... or at least your parents'/guardians'?
Yet to now question another person(s) who claim to reveal things to us (that they received from the Son through the voice in their head) is somehow wrong...
I am blown away by this comment... especially coming from you. Who said it was wrong? Who even intimated that? Supposedly this whole thing was/is about YOU... questioning YOUR faith. Because of this you want others to prove what and whom they put THEIR faith in to YOU. But you are the one LACKING faith. How can you literally challenge someone... when when it's pointed out to you that the error... the lack... is YOURS... and then turn it into "question[ing] another... is somehow wrong"?
You asked for no PMs in the previous thread. To the best of my knowledge, no one PM'd you. I certainly didn't. I even stated that we should leave off discussion because I was not trying to [re]convince you of anything. YOU have to decide... FOR YOURSELF... what you believe and/or don't believe... based on YOUR faith. And then... you PM ME. Why? I'm thinking because you WANT me to [re]convince you. But that is not MY task, dear one - that is between YOU... and God.
MY faith... is MY faith... based on evidence given ME. YOUR faith cannot be based on MY faith. It does not work that way. All I can do is share with you what... and why... I believe as I do. Whether you hear... or refrain. What YOU do... with what I share, what others share, what YOU hear... believe... or don't believe... is solely and entirely up to you. And solely and entirely between you... and God. If you DO choose, then it's between you, God... and Christ. Because he is the ONLY One who can mediate between you two.
Really?
Really?
I know that some will think I am being mean or disrespectful.
I don't. I think you're being indecisive. Lukewarm. Which is why you're having the "crisis" you are. You don't KNOW what you believe... or what you even WANT to believe. But I think it's a bit deceitful of you to lay the blame on the "lack of evidence." You are where you are, right now, because you're disappointed [in God]. Because you don't believe He has answered your prayers. Because you are disappointed in your life, as it is, right now... and think He should "do something" about it. Because you have asked Him to.
A bit of advice? Telling Him that you "love" and "want" to "serve" Him... while harboring animosity against Him in your heart... because you don't like how your life has turned out/is turning out... won't work. It's deceit. He knows why you're calling upon Him: because you want your life to "get better." You want to be like all the other people who claim to have faith... but appear to be doing well. Once again, though, you MISS THE POINT.
No one promised you a rose garden in THIS life, dear Awen. To the contrary, you were promised... a TORTURE tree/pole. Now, if you can't actually take UP that load... whose fault is that? SO many say, "I want to follow Christ." And then, when they come to realize that doing so ISN'T easy... that they are not showered with riches and prosperity and regard by others... when they realize that they DO become NOT great... but "least"... in this life... they go, "Oh, no, I can't do THIS."
You have let the sun set on your anger and so allowed place for the Adversary. And now, look where you are: in "limbo." Unable to "see". And so... you are looking at/for/toward a different "light" now: the evidence of the physical world. But God and Christ are not found in such evidence, directly. As you now seem to need. But you didn't have to carry that load alone; you had a wonderful yokemate. You doubt now, however, because you believe he didn't answer you, when you called. You believe this because you believe you didn't get what you asked for.
And so... your confidence has vanished. Which is exactly what the Adversary said would occur should the Most Holy One of Israel "leave" you. "See will he not curse you... to your very face." Your opportunity to respond to this accusation... the same accusation made as to ALL of us... by the "accuser of our brothers"... presented itself. How did YOU "reply", dear one?
I'm not really. I'm simply asking questions that many of us often hide from (myself included).
No, I think it was more than that. Yes, they are questions many hide from... and many ask. But you asked for a much different reason and in a different manner. Out of anger you challenged more than you asked... and in a manner suggesting that there was no answer, that you already "know" and so there is no proof. You are in error. But again, MY faith is based on proof given to ME. You must based YOUR faith... or, perhaps your lack thereof... on what is given to YOU.
If it's real then it can stand up to questioning.
It is... and it can. Unfortunately, you retain the ability to reject the answers... at your whim and will. Which I have no doubt you will do. So, really... what WAS to point to begin with? Again, it wasn't about you just asking questions...
I bid you peace, truly... however you come about it. My love remains, and I remain...
YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel... both the faithful AND the unfaithful... and a slave of Christ,
SA
