Awen - sincerely hope you take this opportunity to fully reject magic thinking. There are some prime examples of religion making here - people seeking to make converts to silly stories like unto themselves. Snake oil.
Proof of God or Christ without a holy book
by Awen 131 Replies latest jw friends
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MoneurMallard
This is one of the most....
Nevermind....too much elaboration for such a ridiculous topic.
Proving the unprovable is not logical.
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tec
With NO book or cultural indoctrination there would not and there is not a spontaneous generation of belief in a christ or god of equal description
But that isn't really accurate, is it? The first to believe (ever) did not learn from a book or cultural indoctrination. I actually think that is evidence FOR...
Your number 2 is just proof of men listening to themselves and following what they think something means; not proof of no god.
Removing God / Christ from the human picture enriches and empowers an otherwise equal society - or individal - (remember Stalinism is not equal to Czarist Russia ). These benefits should not be possible IF the ultimate truth were a god/christ (society/individuals should
stagnate or fail if based upon an untrue disbelief in an existing, controlling god) for example science is unfettered , sexual liberation occurs, the rights of women increase, education is of higher quality and does not teach myths but becomes more science and fact based,
violence (especially within the home) reduces, gender issues recede or disappear so empowering minority gender preference groups and laws become more equitable and protective of basic rights. Conclusion: There is no innate power in belief in any particular god or christ
and indeed there is a net reduction in the fitness of societies heavily invested in magic thinking. The overall increase in moral behaviour proves that morality is not a divine gift
All of those things you state are harmed by religion, based on your #2 reason above. Not by Christ or God. The rest, I think, is false. Hope in God or Christ (or any loving deity) saves a great many people from despair, and helps them to carry on. Grants strength and peace, and guidance to those who need/want it.
I also do not see an overall increase in moral behavior. Perhaps in some, just as in others we can see an overall decrease in moral behavior.
The complete lack of supernatural manifestation in the most heavily electronically recorded era of mankind - in fact an inverse relationship between technological recording and claimed supernatural manifestation exists -which points to the fact that any god / christ are not
(very) active in any material sense of the world (regardless of how many material claims religionists claim) - no real healings, no real appearances, no audible voices etc.. And yet believers will claim to have experienced physical manifestations (i.e. things they can
perceive with their material brains and senses.) Conclusion: Supernatural claims are bunk. No god / christ is manifest in the material world we all live in and are recorded in.
Or we don't have the equipment that could 'pick them up'... because, as you said, they are not part of the physical world.
There are a lot of first hand witness accounts to 'supernatural' phenomenon (I mean a lot) that you have to dismiss. However, I do know some claims are false, making it more difficult to even consider for a moment, that other claims might be true. This one really only helps the person involved, though they might more likely believe someone else story if it mirrors their own.
Not one single piece of useful knowledge has come from so called reported god/christ statements. No tsunami warnings, no cancer cures, no mathematical principles, no lottery numbers, no details of geology, geography or history. All statements from gods/christs have
hinged upon elevating one or more people into a privileged status of 'the one who is spoken too' and those who must listen to the chosen one(s).
I don't think this is true at all... though I would refer to your #2 again. Men twist things that are said to put themselves into those position.
As for useful scienctific knowledge - I just think that people a couple thousand years ago did not have the language to describe some things that we are beginning to understand today, or the understanding (building blocks) to reach a more detailed conclusion. You have posted on my putting on and taking off the flesh thread, so you know my thoughts on this issue. Some of the things Christ described, (our understanding of) science is beginning to support.
Some people ask why did Jesus not tell people something that they could not have known but that we would know today? I think he told them as much as they could bear, for one, in the best manner that they could understand. As for the other, I think he did that too... we just believe its supernatural nonsense until/unless we prove that it IS true and possible.
Peace,
Tammy
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El Nunya
As long as this world abides, there will always be skeptics and naysayers. The problem with sharing ones faith and/or personal spiritual experiences over a medium such as the internet is that the recipients or those reading the posts do not typically know the poster personally, and so are not in a position to ascertain that persons character. The poster could be a fruit-loop, bipolar, schitzophrenic or a host of other ailments. Or they could simply be on drugs, or are deceivers, charlatans, or frauds whose sole reason in making their presence known is to reek havoc. That definitely poses a problem for some people.
However, acknowledging those realities doesn't negate the responsibility of those who have been 'assigned' a 'mission' to share what they've been given. Their love and devotion for their God and Savior trumps the disbelief and ridicule that skeptics respond with. And to be absolutely candid, the responses aren't ours to carry. What people DO with what is shared is their own responsibility.
The originator of this thread asked for proof of God or Christ without a holy book. Proof in the context of what and how she/he is seeking it will not be provided. However, God does not leave the world without a witness. If it's not presented in the way YOU think it should be, that's of no significance. God doesn't respond to the demands of humans like He's their personal lackey. You can't be angry enough, vile enough, dis-believing enough, pathetic enough to MAKE Him respond. Without the blood of His Son, your sin separates you from Him.
I always wondered exactly what JW's were 'witnesses' of. A witness is one who can give personal testimony in a judicial court. But JW's personal testimony consisted of their beloved WT Society or their 'anointed remnant' or whatever. On the flip-side, the God and Father of the Universe provides the world with living breathing eye-witnesses. Witnesses to the effect that Christ is who His people claim He is, witnesses to the effect that He lived, died, and was resurrected. Witnesses to the effect that He lives, breathes, and makes Himself known to those that belong to Him. Witnesses to the claim that YOU can also come and take life's water for free.
The problem with some is that they would rather stay focused on the person giving the testimony, instead of taking the testimony and looking beyond the person giving it, and going the subject of the testimony. All of Heaven awaits eagerly for the repentance of ONE person. There is great rejoicing when that happens. Christ LIVES. If you receive proof, it will be YOUR proof. And like Shelby said, YOUR proof will not benefit anyone but you. But if you share your proof, perhaps someone else will receive enough faith to get their own proof too.
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MrDarkKnight
@Shelby...I always enjoy your posts...I love a person with strong conviction but with obvious concern for the feelings of others...keep it up...I am still very skeptical of organized religion after 38 years as a JW...but I do have an open mind...
Have a great day,
MDK
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Qcmbr
Can anyone explain why their concept of God has to play psychological, subjective games as the sole means of communication (besides every now and then killing a mass of unsuspecting people , normally in poor parts of the world)?
Is it really too tough to just announce oneself to the world rather than having to do so via - normally charismatic - individuals. Being the most powerful being in the universe with an ever so important message (worship me or else) must really, really suck if the only means at your disposal to communicate is warm, fuzzy feelings, vague impressions, dreams and an inability to use the really smart people. Honestly - must send him into a frustrated rage that he can't just use vibrations in the air or electromangnetic waves. Guess he's not so powerful (smart?) after all.
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MrDarkKnight
@Qcmbr...You have stated clearly the crux of my issue with God. Why use cryptic books subject to a variey of interpretation? Why use charismatic individuals with stories of their supernatural calling?
I just don't know.
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Wasanelder Once
Just because Jesus existed it doesn't mean he was the son of God. Cortez existed. When Cortez arrived the Aztecs supposedly took him for the god Quetzalcoatl. Their eyewitness observations are rather tainted and worthless. It proves nothing. Pretty much the same for the superstitious Semites of Jesus' day.
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ProdigalSon
Why throw out the baby with the bath water? The corrupt priests and lying scribes started out with genuine channeled divine wisdom. The Bible is filled with it. You can't control the masses for thousands of years with a book full of complete garbage. Ancient people knew how to read their myths. It's a lost art today, especially in the West.
Google:
"Metaphysical interpretations of the bible"
..... it's quite interesting. You might have a renewed interest in this book once you, as Paul suggested, "rightly divide the word of truth".
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AGuest
Can anyone explain why their concept of God has to play psychological, subjective games as the sole means of communication (besides every now and then killing a mass of unsuspecting people , normally in poor parts of the world)?
Can you explain your inability to grasp, for example, dear Qcmbr (peace to you!), that the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, does NOT kill masses of unsuspecting people... anywhere? Can you explain your inability to grasp that the "concepts" you have seen/heard of/learned about have absolutely NOTHING to do with the Most Holy One of Israel? Can you explain your inability to grasp that there is no "game"... psychological, subjective, or otherwise... as the sole means of communication... but Christ? Why is it that you CANNOT grasp these truths? What is hindering YOU?
If you say it is your rationality, reasoning, logic, critical thinking skills, I would offer that perhaps that is what is standing in your way: YOUR rationality, reasoning, logic, and critical thinking skills... and not such in and of themselves.
Is it really too tough to just announce oneself to the world rather than having to do so via - normally charismatic - individuals.
If it were, dear one... it wouldn't have been done. But it has been. Didn't make a whit of difference, though. If it didn't before, what makes you think it will, now? Man hasn't changed. He is just as willing to kill someone who threatens his paradigms and way of life TODAY... as he has been in the past. Perhaps even more so.
Being the most powerful being in the universe with an ever so important message (worship me or else)
Again, I must ask: can YOU explain YOUR inability to grasp that NO SUCH being exists... that that is NOT the message of the Most Holy One of Israel... and never was? Can you explain your INABILITY... to move past what "religion" taught you about God? I mean, if religion is SO false (and I agree that it IS!)... why do you continue to hang onto their very false teachings? Please... explain YOUR inability to move PAST their lies! Or... are you CHOOSING to remain in them?
must really, really suck if the only means at your disposal to communicate is warm, fuzzy feelings, vague impressions, dreams and an inability to use the really smart people.
Again, you speak without knowing. No warm fuzzy feelings (at least, not for me), but very forthright, candid, statements. No vague impressions; to the contrary, VERY clear. No dreams (I have said on many occasions that I am fully awake, even woken up). And I must take exception to your comment as to "really smart people." Who, in your [humble] opinion, would that include? Because it seems to ME... that those who DO have faith... as to hear and see what others who LACK faith cannot... MUST be pretty smart. May appear foolish to others, yes, perhaps. But that is not the same as not being smart. It is smart, IMHO... to listen to the Most Holy One of Israel. I mean, seeing as He IS "the most powerful being"... in... AND outside... of this universe. And since HE said to listen to His Son... I think it's kinda pretty smart when one does that. Again, may make them LOOK "foolish"...
But what is the smartest man, if not him that knows that HE... knows nothing... and, in truth, really is a fool? One who exercises faith in God... through Christ... knows that THEY... know nothing. That whatever it APPEARS they know... is his... from him... not theirs... from themselves. Can't be. Because they... know nothing.
Honestly - must send him into a frustrated rage that he can't just use vibrations in the air or electromangnetic waves.
No more so than YOU get frustrated because the ants don't "hear" YOU, dear one. Curious, though, isn't it, that one or two DO hear... or at least "get" YOUR "vibrations"... and move out of your way when YOU pass. But I don't think you get all frustrated when they don't. Do you?
Guess he's not so powerful (smart?) after all.
It isn't Him that's no so powerful... or smart... dear Qcmbr. May I offer you a teenchie bit of advice? In love, truly? Turn from the window. Pick up a mirror. Now... open your eyes.
Again, I bid you peace!
YOUR servant (yep, still!)... and a slave of Christ,
SA