Proof of God or Christ without a holy book

by Awen 131 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  El Nunya

  Dear Shelby,

  Please forgive me, but I rarely read all of your responses because of the 'many words.' Makes my head hurt! Not trying to be critical, just sayin....However, after following this thread from the get-go, I have to tell you that your response was spot on. (actually read the whole thing!)

  I, like you, believed first and then was given MY evidence. And yes, it is beyond anything on the physical plane. What most people don't get is that human motive plays a major part in any response they may get. And unlike humans, we can't deceive our God or Lord. Approaching Holiness requires purity of heart and great humility. If there is purity of heart and genuine humility, our desires will not be selfish. In my own walk, only when my motive was to KNOW God for His own Namesake was there a response from the spiritual realm.

  So, this time, thank you for your 'many words.'
• 

  XJW4EVR

  Awen said:

  @ XJW4EVR The comments about the Bible not being reliable have come from others on these forums. I have noticed a certain disparity myself.

  Jeremiah 8:8 ""'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

  The verse seems to indicate that there are things written in the Torah (by the scribes) that are false and Jeremiah is calling the scribes out on it.

  Now I am sure I could get this same view if I simply read one out of context bible verse, which is the basis of our past training from the WTB&TS. Fortunately, I have educated myself and realized that there are better ways to understand the bible than that. Namely, reading the context of the single verse.

  According to the full context of chapter 8, it appears that Jeremiah 8:8 is not refering to a corrupted version of the Torah or the Tanakh. The very next verse, clearly tells us what the real issue is. That the scribes have "rejected the word of Yahweh"! It is because of this rejection of "the word of Yahweh" that has caused the scribes interpretations of God's law to be false. This is why Jeremiah states that the scribes "handled it (Torah) falsely)."

  Further, Jeremiah uses a Hebrew word (sheh-ker)that is not translated in the sense of textual corruption or anything similar, but rather as "deception" or "falsehood" (Cf. Jeremiah 9:5; 23:26). This view is also supported by Kiel & Delitzsch, who said, "...[S]uch persons, by false interpretation and application, perverted the truth of the law into a lie, he calls their work the work of the lying style (pen)" (Kiel, C.F. & Delitzsch, F. (2002) Commentary on the Old Testament. (Vol. 7, page 645). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson).
• 

  Awen

  @ Shelby

  When reading your posts I became quite upset. I was fuming. However after a few minutes I stopped and asked myself why I was fuming and the answer was given.

  Because you're correct. About all of it. Difficult to admit but the fault is mine and mine alone. I lack faith.

  I thought about my best friend and how he has sometimes disappointed me but I still love him like a brother. Love has caused me to give him the benefit of the doubt, so why am I unable to do so with Christ?

  I suppose I don't love Christ enough for me to keep patient awaiting an answer or to endure through a hrdship because I feel I cannot take it anymore. I just don't love Christ the way he deserves and I don't know how.
• 

  bohm

  Aguest: [on prooving God without the bible] "The same way Moses, David, and others like them did. From Christ, himself. Through holy spirit."

  So the answer seem to be:

  Try to condition yourself into hallucinating stuff. david did it, moses did it, crazy uncle tom does it. and so can you!
• 

  J. Hofer

  awen, the difference is that you know your best friend exists, but you don't know (as you and others, including honest believers, already stated - it can't be proven) that jesus is sitting in the skies and wants to be your friend. in fact there are other people who pretty much state all the same things, but call their invisible friend krishna or wotan or one of the other thousand ideas of which invisible being is doing its best in hiding from us.

  as each of them needs some faith credit and in addition they are mutually exclusive, you could just take a bet and go with one that suits you best. or you could go with what the crowd around you goes with. you could also come to the conclusion that it doesn't make much sense to trust in something that hasn't even revealed it's existence (and even less a reason why it should be trusted).

  telling someone "have a little faith" doesn't work. either you believe something or you don't. and both ways should be backed up with a few reasons. as long as you aren't lying to yourself.
• 

  Twitch

  I see many people in the world who believe in god who have no need of christ or holy books. Seems ok for them. And who says you need any of it to be a good man and lead a good life? To each their own..
• 

  Qcmbr

  There is actually plenty of proof that no god or christ exists.

  1 - With NO book or cultural indoctrination there would not and there is not a spontaneous generation of belief in a christ or god of equal description. In other wods we have the proof that most countries did not generate a consistent god/christ belief in their superstitious phases (instead we got Thor, Zeus, Mithras, Tao and so forth.) Conclusion: Any supposed manifestations of christ/god are no more than culturally and subjectively engendered - there is no authentic God/Christ appearing seperately to peoples across time and culture proclaiming themself consistently. It is therefore impossible to adjudge any individual claims of God/Christ as having any merit whatsoever since they will be factually different and inconsistent from claimant to claimant, culture to culture, age to age - there is no unifying spiritual force sending out the same message.

  2 - Books written about said Christs / Gods are vague and imprecise allowing a multitude of second hand and tertiary interpretations which are evidenced clearly in the number of churches / religious soloists we see currently and have always seen. Conclusion: Any communications from any gods are not contained in any written texts since all written texts are inexact and open to huge interpretationally latitude. Texts open to interpretation cannot be used as any kind of evidence for anything since they are indistinguishable from white noise or rorshach ink blots.

  3 - Removing God / Christ from the human picture enriches and empowers an otherwise equal society - or individal - (remember Stalinism is not equal to Czarist Russia ). These benefits should not be possible IF the ultimate truth were a god/christ (society/individuals should stagnate or fail if based upon an untrue disbelief in an existing, controlling god) for example science is unfettered , sexual liberation occurs, the rights of women increase, education is of higher quality and does not teach myths but becomes more science and fact based, violence (especially within the home) reduces, gender issues recede or disappear so empowering minority gender preference groups and laws become more equitable and protective of basic rights. Conclusion: There is no innate power in belief in any particular god or christ and indeed there is a net reduction in the fitness of societies heavily invested in magic thinking. The overall increase in moral behaviour proves that morality is not a divine gift

  4 - The complete lack of supernatural manifestation in the most heavily electronically recorded era of mankind - in fact an inverse relationship between technological recording and claimed supernatural manifestation exists -which points to the fact that any god / christ are not (very) active in any material sense of the world (regardless of how many material claims religionists claim) - no real healings, no real appearances, no audible voices etc.. And yet believers will claim to have experienced physical manifestations (i.e. things they can perceive with their material brains and senses.) Conclusion: Supernatural claims are bunk. No god / christ is manifest in the material world we all live in and are recorded in.

  5 - The inability of believers to express their subjective experience in any kind of logical or rational language. The more faithful the believer the further removed from rational language their utterances are and the more likley they are to misue words and favour terms that are deliberately imprecise. Phrases such as 'May the force be with you' neatly exemplify the kind of meaningless verbage used by the believer bereft of tangible concepts and material experience. This imprecise language is replaced over time by more specific statements in proportion to the ability to verify said statement (so believers now will rarely if ever claim material experiences like multiplying food, walking on water but will push their experiences into the realm of impression, intuition, bliss and esoteric knowledge rather than concrete experience - but they will generally know someone, who once saw someone suitablly uncheckable who did in fact materially interact with a magic world either now or 2000 years ago.)

  6 - Not one single piece of useful knowledge has come from so called reported god/christ statements. No tsunami warnings, no cancer cures, no mathematical principles, no lottery numbers, no details of geology, geography or history. All statements from gods/christs have hinged upon elevating one or more people into a privileged status of 'the one who is spoken too' and those who must listen to the chosen one(s). This special status of the chosen one allows them to make bold social statements regarding how others should live their lives or what the nature of truth is. Such a blatant lack of useful information and facts coupled with the self aggrandisement of the supposed chosen one(s) is a clear indicator of individuals seeking a social position rather than any actual real interaction with a people's god.

  Let it go - live your wonderful lives - you are amazing, unique and beautifully statistically improbable - you need feel no supernatural guilt or compulsion - you can ignore those who pretend to talk to gods and tell you how to live.
• 

  Ding

  Awen,

  I've sent you a PM.
• 

  jay88

  Interesting, though, isn't it, that no one questions the existence of Mohammed... or Siddartha... or Confucious. And please don't say, "Because there is a record." There is a record of Moses... and David. That some don't LIKE or want to ACCEPT the record doesn't invalidate the record..." I digress.)

  Another fork in the road,..."validity of records", isn't what we are talking about regarding scripture. Whether real or unreal, true or untrue, valid or invalid

  Without the tangible(the bible and/or word of mouth) you would not have the intangible(faith in Christ)

  Show me a person with "Faith in Christ" without preseeding through tangible evidence(bible/word of mouth)

  FOF
• 

  AGuest

  Greetings, dear El... and peace to you! I apologize for my verbosity (out of the heart's abundance...); however, I am glad that my many words resounded with you this time! Again, peace to you!

  Dear, dear Awen... the greatest of love and peace to you! You DO know how to love our Lord the way he "deserves", dear one. EVERYONE does: the same way YOU/THEY wish to BE loved. And how is that? Without being judged. As YOU wish to BE loved... without being judged. Being given the benefit of the doubt. As YOU wish to BE given the benefit of the doubt. In spite of what others may think. As you wish to BE loved... in spite of what others may think of YOU. With loyalty. As you wish to BE loved in loyalty. And... in faith. Faith that he WILL do as he promised. As you wish others to have faith in what YOU promise. All... just as YOU "wish men to do to YOU." Yes, it really IS that easy.

  Lordy, my brother, we live in a world... and society... so RIFE with suspicion! Folks always talking about how "free" they are - yet, living in so much FEAR: of being lied to, misled, taken advantage of, tricked, ripped-off, abused, etc. All things that MAN does to his fellowman. But that is NOT the way of the Most Holy One of Israel... nor the way of His Son.

  Unfortunately, man has been lied to, abused, misled, taken advantage of, robbed, ripped off, tricked... and told utterly FALSE things about the Most Holy One of Israel AND Christ... that trust... and thus FAITH... is hard to come by. Like many others, you question not only the existence of God and Christ... but your faith... BECAUSE of the lies, misleadings, abuse, trickery, etc., of those claiming to "know" God and Christ. But... they do NOT. If they did, they would have told you the TRUTH: that it is NOT a rose garden... but a TORTURE tree/pole! That more people are going to HATE you... than love you! Which is what Christ is recorded to have SAID. And in that case, you would UNDERSTAND what occurs from time to time... and why.

  Instead, folks have told you to expect "blessings" NOW... such blessings being in the way of greatness, prosperity, possessions, acclimation, recognition, acceptance, even reverence... now. That is a LIE. Those who have TRULY have faith in Christ... who TRULY know him... KNOW... that belonging to him means being a LEAST one in this world... and often all that comes with that. Our own Lord had nowhere to lay HIS head. He was riddled with disease... despised by MANY... even betrayed by his own "brother", someone he grew up with and loved. Someone who KNEW him.

  When we AGREE... by CHOOSING... to take up OUR "torture" tree/pole... we are AGREEING/CHOOSING... to undergo much of what HE did. Maybe not exactly, but have our FLESH "tested"... to the same degree! I get it that you may not love our Lord the way he "deserves." That you DON'T. But I don't believe that you CAN'T. IF you can't... it is because that is what you are CHOOSING: to give in... and give up.

  Our Lord does not expect perfection from you, dear one. Not at ALL. He KNOWS that you can't measure up "perfectly." He KNOWS this! That is why he gave HIS life: so that you don't HAVE to... when you CAN'T. HE... makes up our deficit! He didn't come to call righteous people; he came to call SINNERS. Righteous people... can save themselves! HE... is for the UNRIGHTEOUS, those who CAN'T do/be perfect... on their own! Which is... everyone (though not everyone will admit this!).

  He knows your sins... your weaknesses... your errors... your shortcomings. And BECAUSE he knows... he gave HIS life... to COVER those sins, weaknesses, errors, and shortcomings. HIS blood... cleanses you from such things... because YOUR blood cannot. So... he gave his. And ANYONE who wishes to take advantage of this GIFT... can DO so! Even you.

  IF, however, you are so ANGRY... at your particular "lot" in life... you may not be able to see your way clear TO take advantage of that gift. But I have to admit that I have to work on my sympathy for those who live in, say, our country... who get mad at and turn away from God simply because their life "sucks" (to THEM). Because the WORSE day in the western world... is almost ALWAYS better than the BEST day... in the third world, etc.

  Here, we get all upset because we don't have a big house, or new/running car, or fancy furniture, or our kids can't go the best schools. Or our spouse/significant other doesn't love us anymore/is cheating on us/chooses a religion over us. We get all upset because our kids/spouse don't listen to us, we're not "appreciated" at work, or "used" in the congregation. We get all upset because we have to work 8 or more hours a day, food is expensive, and gas is off the charts.

  Yet, in some places on this planet... people don't have a house. They have huts, if that. They not only don't have a running car... they don't have running WATER. Or the water is shared with livestock. Their kids don't go to school, let alone the BEST schools. They are subject to tyrannical spouses... if such spouse hasn't died from AIDS, hepatitis, malaria, dissentery, yellow fever, TB... or war. They are forced to believe one religion... or NO religion. Their spouses not only beat them, but can kill them... as can their male child(ren). Work? They own a goat and a chicken. Or they must work 20 hours days... in order to produce oil, gold, diamonds... or something else that we in the western world "must" have... but they are risking their lives to provide. Food may be expensive here... but there IS food. And who needs gas... when one can only walk... miles and miles.

  I would ask you, then... indeed, IMPLORE you... to put it in proper perspective! You're angry at God (and Christ)... for what? Because you have "problems"? Who doesn't? Who said following Christ would free you from problems??? Certainly not Christ. Rather, HE said following him would BRING you problems. BIG problems. GREAT problems.

  So it really boils down to whether one is truly WILLING to take HIS yoke... and carry HIS load... which is dependent upon carrying a TORTURE tree/pole. If one isn't willing... or simply cannot... no problem: one is not judged adversely. It is when one says they WILL... but then does NOT... that a problem arises.

  What one VOWS to the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... one should endeavor to PAY. Because HE does not force ANYONE to make such a vow; He only promises what the reward will be, through Christ, for doing so. EVERYONE is free, however, to make their OWN choice... as to what THEY will... or will not... do. NO ONE... can make it for YOU... nor can YOU make if for anyone else.

  I hope this helps and, again, the greatest of love and peace to you!

  YOUR servant... and a slave of Christ,

  SA