Proof of God or Christ without a holy book

by Awen 131 Replies latest jw friends

  • jay88
    jay88

    FlyingHighNow: It's puzzling, the amount of questioning of believers that takes place here on JWN and other ex witness boards and facebook on this subject. Discussion is one thing, but the constant "Prove there is a God" comments and threads is another. I just wonder about this difference between never been witnesses atheists and especially the born or raised in atheists. It's an interesting concept. I believe we are all on our own unique journeys spiritually or not spiritually. And hopefully we try to respect each other's journey. It's not easy to do sometimes, but it's something to aspire to. I respect that some do not sense or feel or see evidence of God or gods or higher intelligence. I'm just stating this difference I have seen in atheists who weren't ever JW's and ones who were.

    Same can be said for Christian propagation on this site as well

    FOF

  • jah1914
    jah1914

    @Twitch - yep.

  • Ding
    Ding

    Owen,

    I suppose many believe in the divinity of Jesus because of his attitude and teachings as set out in the Bible. Of course, from that alone one might conclude that he was a great man and philosopher but not divine. The problem is that the same sources that tell us all about his great "love" teachings and behavior also tell us about his hard sayings -- that he and the Father are one, that no one comes to God except through him, that we have to eat his flesh and drink his blood in order to have eternal life. If he is not divine, then he was a megalomaniac who was also very self-sacrificing, forgiving, loving, and engaging -- a very puzzling combination.

    In considering the issue of his divinity, I look to the historicity or lack of historicity of his resurrection. Even Paul admits in 1 Corinthians 15 that the entire Christian faith depends on this issue. If Jesus in fact rose from the dead, that miracle would certainly authenticate his outrageous claims. Admittedly, there is no video available of his death and resurrection, and if it had all happen this year and it had been recorded on video, that STILL wouldn't be irrefutable proof. We would still suspect Hollywood deception or perhaps an incredible performance by a master illusionist.

    So how can we judge the resurrection claim?

    I think there is little doubt that the Eleven (after Judas defected) truly believed that they had encountered Jesus alive after his death on several occasions, that he ate and drank with them and that they touched him. They also claimed they saw him ascend into heaven.

    These men were in a unique position to KNOW whether the resurrection really happened or whether they stole the body and fabricated a "resurrection" in order to keep the Jesus legend going, make themselves into people of power and influence, or whatever. Most of these men died as martyrs. I don't know about you, but if I had been a part of some Passover plot and fraud, I would have recanted loudly about the time they sharped the ax or got out the cross (torture stake, if you prefer) and nails. Nixon's Watergate conspirators, powerful men of influence, cracked and confessed their lies under far less provocation than Jesus' disciples endured.

    The Romans and Pharisees could have stopped the spreading resurrection "heresy" by taking Jesus' body out of the tomb and parading it through Jerusalem. Yet they didn't. If Jesus' body had been tossed into a common grave, they still could have dug up the remains. Why didn't they?

    Absent a genuine resurrection, why did so many Jews of that day convert so quickly to the religion of a man who failed completely to meet their expectations of a conquering warrior-Messiah? Why would they convert to follow a dead Messiah who had just deeply disappointed the nation and been crucified by the hated nation they expected a true Messiah to overthrow? Why would they so easily and quickly abandon belief in crucial aspects of the Jewish faith such as righteousness being earned by keeping the law of Moses, observing the Saturday sabbath, honoring only YHWH as divine, etc.?

    Absent the resurrection of Jesus, why did converts start a practice called communion which celebrated -- not the teachings or life of Jesus -- but the gruesome manner of his death? Why did they carve crosses into their hiding places (as archaelogists have recently uncovered) if Jesus was murdered on one and never really conquered the grave?

    Why would Saul of Tarsus suddenly go from being a persecutor of -- as he believed -- the resurrectionist heretics to being the primary proclaimer of personal encounters with the same resurrected Christ? Why did he go through the deprivations and conflict and martyrdom? Did he falsify his supposed encounters with the risen Christ? Why? Wasn't he already a rising star among the Pharisees? Why make himself their enemy to promote something he knew was a fraud?

    Does all of this argumentation provide irrefutable PROOF that Jesus really was a divine being who rose from the dead? No, but I think it is evidence that deserves serious consideration.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Jay 88, you completely missed my point. We are used to evangelical Christians being evangelical. Atheists, not so much. It's an observation about some exjw atheists standing out from most other atheists. It's almost as if some can't forget the evangelical part of the JW past. Could there be doubts they aren't addressing?

  • Twitch
    Twitch

    FHN, I agree with your observation and have noticed the same difference.

    However, I would add that most not-ever-a-jw atheists in the world likely formed their worldview early in life and haven't had any sort of mid-life crisis of belief that radically changed those beliefs. Not saying it doesn't happen, just that it isn't as likely as what typically happens to one who leaves the org. Of course, it could be said that atheists tend not to "congregate", don't meet regularly to affirm their beliefs and haven't been "trained" to recruit, for the most part.

    All things being equal, one might think the reactions and responses of anyone in a "wake up call" situation might be similar. What is the baseline or average reaction to finding out what you've believed heart and soul is a lie? How would a not-ever-a-jw atheist react to finding out that they've been wrong all this time and that there is indeed a god? Would it be similar to the reactions of those here? Hard to say, actually.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Twitch, I am not sure about the whys. I can imagine that if the god you've been taught your whole life turns out to be a fake, then it could leave you floundering. Before I was a JW, I knew people who didn't believe in God and that lived easily with the idea that they would just cease to exist when they someday would die. My grandson says he has never "felt anything up there." He does believe in ghosts and spirits and that people will live on once they die though. So I am thinking there are people who just never feel anything up there. But with exjw's, it seems different, the reasons they come to the no god conclusion.

    I understand the need to discuss this kind of subject, whether there is a god or not. What is perplexing is the constant prodding, even badgering for proof from people who don't believe to people who do believe in a higher power. I see proof everyday of an intelligent higher power. What is proof to me would not satisfy very hardened skeptics. I don't see a need to debate any of it. I don't believe that higher power requires anyone to believe anything.

  • jay88
    jay88

    I am asking you to readjust your thinking on how something is suppose to be and act.
    The nature of the exjws that my become atheist, is what it is.

    Can we put under a microscope the evolution of a former JWs, now Christian(of whatever denomination)?

    Could there be doubts they aren't addressing?
    There could be doubt that isn't being addressed, like there should be.
    If there are Christians on this site, that have the liberty to proclaim Christ, what is wrong with an atheist
    asking a Christian to walk them through the process of such proclamations?

    FOF

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing atheism or theism or any belief system or doubts. There is a difference between sincere discussion and badgering.

  • XJW4EVR
    XJW4EVR

    This is important because it has been stated ad nauseum that the Bible isn't a reliable source of information about God (as many lies have been told) and therefore shouldn't be used.

    Really? How did you come to this conclusion? Please don't feed me links to others writings. I am asking YOU how YOU came to this conclusion.
  • jay88
    jay88

    FHN: I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing atheism or theism or any belief system or doubts. There is a difference between sincere discussion and badgering.

    Would it be better if it is wrapped up in Christian platitude,.....cause I see plenty of badgering from christians here.

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