The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.

by Nickolas 269 Replies latest jw friends

AGuest

The key difference between the New World and the Spiritual World is the latter cannot be proven, because it cannot be perceived but through individual revelation
And so that difference, dear Nick (again, peace to you!)... that the latter cannot be "proven" because it can only perceived through individual revelation (for NOW, because that will not always be the case)... absolutely negates its existence?
I can postulate that there are fairies in my garden, and I can believe it too, but that does not make it real to anyone but me.
If you didn't see/hear, etc., fairies... I would say they aren't real at all. But if you said you saw/heard them... and others say so, as well... who am I to dispute it? I can only say, "Well, okay, dear Nick, YOU saw them... or believe you did... and so, more power to you." Now, if you said to ME, "YOU have to see them, TOO, Shel"... we might have a problem. If you said you saw/heard them... and what you related that they showed/told you made sense to ME... then I would either say, "Perhaps I can see/hear them, too? What do I need to do?" or "Do I need to see/hear them, too?" Or even, "Sorry, but I don't see/hear them, dear Nick, but what you say makes sense. I'll ponder over it and see what's what. In the meantime, more power to YOU."
To everyone else, they do not exist.
Except others who see/hear them, as well... right?
As to galaxies and stars and planets, we have ample evidence that they can and do exist, therefore we are not surprised when we discover them. The same cannot be said for the spiritual world of which you speak.
I disagree, dear one. The astronomical and other natural science worlds rejoice when a new galaxy/star/planet is discovered. So, too, the spirit realm... and those here who belong to it... when we discover (find) it... as well as when we are discovered (found) by those who belong to it, both here AND there.
But I do not deny the possibility. I deny the possibility that there could have been a being sufficiently complex to create such great complexity. The watch is less complex than the watchmaker. The pot is less complex than the potter. The universe must be less complex than the creator. But to deny that something of such great complexity as the universe could have possibly come into existence on its own means that something of even greater complexity came into existence on its own, or always existed. It does not compute.
And for ME... to BELIEVE that something of such great complexity as the universe could have POSSIBLY come into existence ON ITS OWN... does not compute. Surely, the university is more complex than a watch or a pot. If these mundane things have a creator... how could something much more vastly complex NOT have one? As for such an entity coming into existence on its own... I don't believe that. That it (He) always existed makes absolute sense... because "always" is with regard to OUR timespan. I get that some of our brains cannot fathom that something/someone was always/already there... but to believe that a "big bang" occurred "just because"... resulting in the entire physical universe... does not for ME... compute.
Even if there was only a speck of dust that somehow combusted, something (or someone) caused that event. That the event resulted in stars and galaxies, and planets... and US... makes sense to ME... only as it has been explained to be by One who said he was there... and why it all occurred in the first place. But the kicker for ME... is that if that one unprovoked "bang" resulted in all of this, then (1) such bangs should still be occurring (are they?), and (2) if they are, then there is not a UNIverse, but MULTIverses. In which case, how do we not know that some from OTHER verses are in fact making "contact"... but not necessarily empirically?
The record of which you speak was written only thousands of years ago by non-eye witnesses.
That's inaccurate, dear one. Some was written by non-eyewitnesses, but not all. Even so, if what you say is true, then transcriptions of witness testimony should be invalid (i.e., each witness should be required to write down and sign his/her own account, otherwise it's invalid).
It does not, sadly, qualify as a record but as an assertion. An assertion without any evidence to back it up. Not too old. Far, far, far too recent, and far too primitive.
See above. And keep in mind, please, that all kinds of non-eye witness items/documents/records are considered evidence, so long as the person who compiled them can be examined. But even that's not always necessary - so long as someone can authenticate the item... it can still be considered a record... and evidence.
It is a wonderful hope, but the important thing is living for today because you can have no assurance whatsoever that tomorrow (whether that be the day after today or the millenium after today) will ever come for mankind. What you can be assured of based on the evidence of record is that you, personally, will not exist as a human being after a very short period of time.
This is true, but it totally discounts what we do not know... but believe POSSIBLE. Many in the science world BELIEVE we should live forever... and spend a great deal of time trying to find the key to that. I believe it, too... and simply walk a different path toward... and in line with... that belief.
Pascal's Wager, my dear. I think God would be unimpressed if I kinda, sorta believed in Him just in case He turns out to exist after all.
I think you'd be surprised, dear one. I think MANY try to do good "just in case there is a God"... as well as because doing good is the right thing to the do. Seeing as I believe that those who do good to Christ's brothers will inherit God's kingdom as well... I think the Most Holy One of Israel will be pleased that such ones even tried... regardless of their reason. Of course, doing it out of love... and faith... is the BEST reason but, alas, neither love nor faith are the possession of ALL men. God is not as "exacting" as religion has made Him out to be, dear one. Look at Christ and you'll see this.
Again, the greatest of love and peace to you... and thank you for continuing to engage me/us in your very gentlemanly and respectful way. It allows discussions like this to continue without undue frustration and misguided provocations, does it not?
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
AGuest

What bothers me is, if God is omniscient - knows what's going to happen even before it happens - how was it He got blindsided?
We're both parents, dear one (again, peace to you!), yes, and so there have been many times where we COULD have chosen to know what our children were up to... but didn't exercise that choice. Why? Because we wanted our children to know... and BELIEVE... that we TRUSTED them, yes? And so, we turned our eye/head... and hoped. That what we taught them made some impression... that they would conduct themselves as we trained them to... that things would turn out as we hoped. For some of us parents... we were not only surprised by the choices/actions/conduct of our children... but heartbroken. And, yes, blindsided.
Like human parents, God's LOVE... would have caused Him to not try and control everything... but allow others to make choices. Why? Because UNLIKE human parents... HE could und/reverse whatever harm resulted. Not without great pain and sacrifice, of course, but still...
That we don't allow ourselves to see that LOVE prompted Him to allow things to unfurl as they have... that He was and is a better parent than all humans combined... because He does NOT leave His children in the hands of His enemy, Death... but delivers them... just as He delivered the One He gave to REPURCHASE them from Death... is puzzling to me, sometimes. But I guess one would have to have some level of understanding of just what all went on... why... and for whom, ultimately... to do that.
meow?
Yeah, probably. I tried for it not to be, truly. It was actually worse (I'm tired and sometimes certain ones' comments make me "cranky")... and so my Lord directed me to temper it further. I do not claim to be nice, dear one... but openly confess that I can be not so nice. I would love to be even-tempered like our dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you, as well!)... but I'm not there, yet (nor can I say I will ever be). Our Lord knows what I'm made of, though, and so... praise JAH... stills puts up with me. Hopefully, those here will, too. If not... I understand, truly.
Again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA, who's not trying to "win" anyone with her personality and anyone waiting for that will probably be waiting... well, for quite awhile yet - LOLOL!
Nickolas

for NOW, because that will not always be the case)... absolutely negates its existence?
unproven and unprovable.
But if you said you saw/heard them... and others say so, as well... who am I to dispute it? I can only say, "Well, okay, dear Nick, YOU saw them... or believe you did... and so, more power to you."
Consistent with my wishes to you.
Except others who see/hear them, as well... right?
You are right again. A good analogy might be the Flat Earth Society.
So, too, the spirit realm... and those here who belong to it... when we discover (find) it... as well as when we are discovered (found) by those who belong to it, both here AND there.
Again, you are telling me that you are aware of a world other than the one I can perceive. Furthermore you are telling me that you are aware of what goes on in that world. I respect your right to believe these things. They are not available to me.
That it (He) always existed makes absolute sense...
Not to me.
then (1) such bangs should still be occurring (are they?), and (2) if they are, then there is not a UNIverse, but MULTIverses. In which case, how do we not know that some from OTHER verses are in fact making "contact"... but not necessarily empirically?
We don't. There might be a multiverse, but we haven't got a testable proof of a theory, so we do not entertain it beyond what is merely possible. Other universes making contact with this one is an interesting hypothesis, but lacking any supporting theory it is just that, an hypothesis. Same goes for the existence of God. It is an interesting hypothesis but, like the multiverse hypothesis, without evidence. If you are asking can God be real because we can't prove otherwise my answer is no. It goes to my comment before this one.
That's inaccurate, dear one. Some was written by non-eyewitnesses, but not all. Even so, if what you say is true, then transcriptions of witness testimony should be invalid (i.e., each witness should be required to write down and sign his/her own account, otherwise it's invalid)... And keep in mind, please, that all kinds of non-eye witness items/documents/records are considered evidence, so long as the person who compiled them can be examined. But even that's not always necessary - so long as someone can authenticate the item... it can still be considered a record... and evidence.
I thought the context was creation/evolution. Adam didn't write Genesis, far as I remember. Eyewitness testamony is quite often wrong, actually. It is only when eyewitness testamony is accompanied with physical evidence (there's that word again) that it is more credible. We are talking about the credibility of what people are saying is truth. I do not take them on their word. They have to show me more evidence or I will not be inclined to believe what they are trying to tell me.
This is true, but it totally discounts what we do not know... but believe POSSIBLE. Many in the science world BELIEVE we should live forever... and spend a great deal of time trying to find the key to that.
Only if they are completely out of touch with reality. All species go extinct. All. We will go extinct too. We arrived only a heartbeat ago and we will depart even sooner.
I think MANY try to do good "just in case there is a God"...
Then their motives are insincere. I much prefer those who do good because they feel they should do good, regardless of the existence of God.
offered with a mild voice, a warm heart and in the spirit of the category in which this thread was started.
AGuest

I'll take any evidence at all . . . . anything . . . as long as it's reasonable.
But you do not think/believe what some of us share on this matter to BE reasonable, dear Size (again, peace to you!), so again... YOU are the one laying the limitations.
"Anecdotal" and "Testimonial" evidence alone could have me believing in Santa Clause . . . or worse, a JW (were it not for personal experience)
True, as to both. But I'm willing to bet that if you KNOW... and LOVE... the one giving such testimonial evidence... say a child, spouse, sibling, parent... and/or know them to be TRUTHFUL... you would be more apt to believe them, yes? Sure, you might find out they're wrong... but would you assume them wrong from the beginning, without giving them the benefit of the doubt? So, for example, if your wife (assuming you have one and you're on good terms with her - LOL!) came to you and said, "Hey, I have seen the Messiah!"... would you totally dismiss her? What if she couldn't show YOU this man today... but told you of HER experience... which sounds pretty credible?
What if she said to you, "He came and spoke to me in the early hours of this morning, before you awoke!"? What if she's been telling you things like this for years... and everything she says makes sense or clears up something you were wondering about... and you KNOW... in all other respects, she's not only totally sane, but actually pretty bright... and it's pretty much ONLY in this thing that is, in your opinion, "unusual" about her/your relationship?
Would you bombard her with, say, books by Richard Dawkins, et al., and tell her to "snap out of it"? What if it made her a better wife, friend, person... in YOUR life? What if you SAW the progress in HER? Would THAT not also be "evidence"... as well as her "testimony" as to what is occurring with HER?
Or would you say to her, "I don't see/hear what you see/hear... yet... and I'm not sure if I ever will, but it's not coming between US... and I know you love ME... and you know I love YOU... so..." Would you not say that to ANY person you loved, respected, had regard for... if you saw the EVIDENCE of those events in THEIR lives?
It's interesting you raise the example of Thomas. I would greatfully accept even a fraction of what Thomas received. But here's the problem I raised earlier. In spite of being an eyewitness of Jesus miracles, he wanted more evidence . . . and he got it. It was no problem for the Lord to front up then. Why can't I just have my fraction . . . I see no reasonable explanation for this . . .
That's not accurate, dear one. You don't ACCEPT the reasonable explanation, which was/is that Thomas was TOLD that after HIM it was those who believed/exercised faith WITHOUT seeing such as he did...who would be "happy". What is that "happiness"? Having the thing HOPED for... become a REALITY.
I've asked a thousand times . . . Thomas asked just once. I draw a blank . . . Thomas get's everything he asks for . . .
Thomas was an apostle, dear one... who literally walked with my Lord and, as my Lord said was with him "throughout all his trials." Thomas DEMONSTRATED his faith... FIRST... by even following my Lord, LONG before he committed his first "miraculous" act. Thomas did not need to see water turned to wine, or my Lord walk on water, or demons expelled, or sick people healed, or hungry people fed. He went... WHEN HE WAS CALLED. Dropped what he was doing. He didn't say, "Show me you're the Messiah FIRST, and THEN I'll follow you!" Thomas' faith waned as to my Lord being RESURRECTED. Not as to him BEING Christ, the Son of God. Since he had already followed Christ, he was shown mercy and given the view he demanded.
as apparently, do others who have an unshakeable faith based on evidence of some kind.
But those of us ALSO followed him FIRST. Some of us partook while still in the WTBTS... in spite of the great persecution we KNEW was coming... and received... FOR Christ. We heard the "call"... and obeyed. Even though others tried to tell us we didn't hear and shouldn't obey. When we hear his voice, we don't attribute it to ourselves... or hide it from others who might think us crazy - we tell the TRUTH... and take the sarcasm, ridicule, and belittling that comes with that. For that... we ARE pronounced "happy"... because we're not doing it because he shows us his scars - we do it... because we LOVE him.
"Anecdotal" evidence alone was not sufficient for Thomas . . . so why the partiality? Why should it be good enough for me?
Why shouldn't it? You're not Thomas, dear one. You haven't even professed to belong to Christ. To the contrary, you deny he even exists... while demanding he show himself to you. Think, dear Size... is that REALLY the One you've heard about? I understand that you don't hear/see or know him as some of us do. But with what you DO know... why should someone YOU deny exists be bound to reveal himself to YOU? He doesn't NEED you... or me... or dear tec... or any other dear ones. WE... need HIM. We recognize that - I'm not sure you do.
Maybe you should consider revealing yourself... to HIM.
I'm simply looking for God . . . but I can't find him anywhere.
Are you looking at... and to... Christ... and ONLY Christ? Because you cannot find God in a "where"... but only in... and through... a Whom: His Son, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). Look at HIM, the copper serpent raised up. Put your gaze on HIM... in ALL things... and you will not only FIND God... but SEE Him, as well.
KEEP seeking, dear one... KEEP asking... and KEEP knocking. Or... throw in towel as most do. I hope you don't.
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
AGuest

offered with a mild voice, a warm heart and in the spirit of the category in which this thread was started.
Of course, dear one... and taken the same way. I "get" you, dear Nick... and I TRULY appreciate that you are at least TRYING to "get" me and other dear ones like me. I think that we both appreciate that the other is where they are in their beliefs... and path... and that there is nothing wrong with that. I post what I do to either (1) a specific audience... and anyone/everyone is more than entitled to not read my posts, or (2) to respond to either something stated or something asked. It is, IMHO, good news... and the invitation is to ALL - no matter their background, knowledge, whatever.
I realize that religion has created the divide - I am quite chagrined over that; but they have proven to be just as much MY "enemies" as they are those who don't believe at all. I do not get how anyone can claim to love God/Christ... and still be a part of it once they realize what "she" really wroughts.
I also don't believe, however, that one has to lose one's faith... because of losing one's religion. Nor that one has to lose one's faith due to the evidence presented as to the physical world... unless one only believes in the physical world. I do not. That is due to evidence that I have received... which is very real to me. Am I delusional? Perhaps. I truly do not think so. Am I different? Other than in this, I also do not think so. Am I "better"... than anyone? I absolutely do NOT think so, but often think quite the opposite (there are SO many that I could never hold a candle to... both those who have... intellect and/or status... and those who have absolutely nothing... except big hearts).
I wish there was some way I could say to some, "Live and just let live," but I am sure there are those who would say the same to me, given my responses to some of their posts. So, what can you do? Live... and let live.
Thank you, truly, for affording some of us the opportunity to explain WHY we can and do believe as we do, in the face of Hubble, etc. I don't think the discussion changed much for many who participated, but it was a very refreshing discussion, IMHO, and I look forward to others.
May the undeserved kindness and mercy of MY God and Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, and the love and peace of His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, His Chosen One... be upon you... your lovely wife... and your entire household... to time indefinite!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
Nickolas

Am I "better"... than anyone? I absolutely do NOT think so, but often think quite the opposite (there are SO many that I could never hold a candle to... both those who have... intellect and/or status... and those who have absolutely nothing... except big hearts).
If God reads hearts, I trust He will find mine in order, even if I do not believe in Him.
I don't think the discussion changed much for many who participated, but it was a very refreshing discussion, IMHO, and I look forward to others.
I will take that as a goodbye - for this thread, I mean. Thank you for contributing to what has been an interesting conversation.
Time for me to take my leave for the day. Up early in the morning.
sizemik

why should someone YOU deny exists be bound to reveal himself to YOU?
I do not deny he exists . . . I only confess that I have no evidence for it.
It appears to me that in order to have access to any personal experience that would constitute evidence of any description . . . that I must first "believe" in something I currently have absolutely no evicence for . . . to muster a "blind faith" from nothing . . . and then the evidence will present itself.
I just cannot force myself to believe something that I have not a single shred of evidence for . . . And find such a requirement unreasonable with regard to anything.
If that somehow disqualifies me . . . I will have to get used to it I suppose . . . but I'm not a towel thrower.
Awen

@ sizemilk
If you want to know then the way you find out is simple. You're not gonna find God in a book or set of books. You'll find what others have written about Him but you won't actually discover him until you do one thing. Just one thing.
Pray.
Get down on the floor (or the best you can) lay flat down or simply on your knees (it's about respect). Confess everything to Jesus that you have said on this thread. Admit your lack of faith based upon your own reasoning. Pour your heart out, mean every word of it.
Ask for some sort of confirmation that He has heard you so that you might gain some faith. Perhaps the sign might be a particular thing a person says or something you can see. But it has to be something outside of yourself that you have no control over nor could possibly influence. It might be something someone you hold dear to you says.
That's ALL you need to do. Just have a little faith and try it.
Is that so hard my friend?
sizemik

That's ALL you need to do. Just have a little faith and try it.
Thank you for the kind advice Awen . . . but I have done this very thing hundreds of times and occasionally still do so.
I guess I must be a bit spiritually "thick"
One area of interest that has opened up to me during my period of "asking" is Spherical Standing Wave theory (SSW). Whether this is an answer to a prayer or a natural consequence of my search . . . I guess time will tell.
I will not permit myself to be fooled again
EntirelyPossible

Pray.
Get down on the floor (or the best you can) lay flat down or simply on your knees (it's about respect). Confess everything to Jesus that you have said on this thread. Admit your lack of faith based upon your own reasoning. Pour your heart out, mean every word of it.
So talk to an invisible person you don't believe exists and he will suddenly give a mysterious sign from someone else and hope you see it? No wonder Jesus people get elected to office so often, selling bullshit in their stock and trade.
Thank you for the kind advice Awen . . . but I have done this very thing hundreds of times and occasionally still do so.
Come by my house just before Halloween. I am making a skeleton jesus on a cross for the front yard.

The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.

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